3DH

I will go on the record and say that I hope dooijp doesn't vacate us as he/she says... I appreciate the comments and viewpoints, but probably like a lot of folks here, have faith in our respective clubs and just have to trust that things will run smoothly in the future. It isn't that we don't think in the back of our minds that some sort of doomsday COULD occur, but that we enjoy the vacations locales that our DC's provide us and try to overlook the negative economy and just move forward as we can't control what happens on a global or even the national spectrum.

Regardless of the viewpoints given here, we are all still learning, and are all due our own opinions. But, if anyone can't take the heat...

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"Boutique" is better! Another extremely satisfied LUSSO member!

pwrshift

I made the observation months ago that this board appears to newbies as all positive - no negatives. And when one posts a concern that may sound negative, he/she gets flamed, joked about, insulted over what they might already own, etc., instead of being treated as serious.

Until recently, 'reviews' here have been a joke with no negatives other than broken toaster or something very small. c'mon...we all live in a real world. Someone even took a run at TripAdvisor as not being 'balanced' but I aways read the negative reviews first there because I'm sure the hotel didn't write them.

It doesn't surprise me at all that there are so few 'regular' posters because the attitudes of a few of the 'heavy posters' chase them away. dooijp could have made a great ongoing contribution to this board but didn't find what he needed here, even thought he bought into a DC.

I've mentioned in another post that I've now 'experienced' two DC units with 2 different companies (that I don't want to mention for personal reasons) and found several things wrong - dirty and broken patio furniture, broken jacuzzi, fingerprints all over the stainless appliances, etc. Both units had TLC problems I didn't expect because reviews here said everything would be perfect. I would write an anonymous review on them if there was a review section here.

I've found these deficiencies with timeshares too, but was assured on this board that DC's are different. Now I know otherwise. IMO the DC companies I experienced were not minding the store - making repairs/replacements only after hearing from members that something needed attention -- instead of inspecting each unit after each guest and making the changes before a member even knew.

Part of the problem with TS upkeep is that most developers sell 52 weeks of the year. So if the units are occupied every week of the year, how can they do major repairs between 10 am and 4 pm on check out day? This could be the same for some units with DC's ... such as NYC, LaCosta, and others that are booked continuously while those seasonal units may get better maintenance attention.

There is a place for humour here, I'm sure, but what may be funny for one is not for another. Even in Playboy, more than half the jokes aren't funny and their subscription numbers are falling.

LTTravel

We just know you as pwrshift from Canada. We don't know who you are so it is somewhat anonymous. You find the negative reviews on Tripadvisor useful but won't write one here. As you know, all reviews are useful and your review may get criticized by some but will be useful to others. When I thought a review was too over the top I posted my opinion of the same property and was beat up a little bit. But I have no problem stating my opinion, even if it is different than others. So please post your reviews. The will be beat up and appreciated as well.

vineyarder

Are you afraid of retribution from the club(s)?

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Living in a vacuum sucks!

ASIADCMEMBER

LTT Travel:

How have you found DHH lite compared to your other clubs?

LTTravel

All I can tell you is that availability is incredible. I haven't had a chance to use it yet, only because of my schedule, not availability. So I can't tell you about the services or homes yet but discussion with members who have used it has been Very Positive. I would even consider moving up a level or two if I had any more vacation time. There are several properties that I can see going to frequently.

pwrshift

No. Actually I hadn't thought of that possibility. I have arranged a temporary trial arrangement and don't want to go against that agreement at this point. I can say that overall I am very pleased with my stays and that they were generally higher quality than most timeshares I've been too - and certainly more spacious - but they weren't 'perfect' and I guess I expected that.

saluki

pwrshift-

First of all, for someone who is as presumably intelligent & successful as you are, I am amazed at how thin-skinned you are...

I think you are confusing people giving you a hard time with an overall "flaming" & "joking" vibe on the boards. IMO, posters were giving you jabs because you kept reiterating the same anti-DC (& specifically anti-HCC) comments. Namely, the inability to get consecutive weeks at the same property, no room service, not all beach properties located directly on the beach, etc. in comparison to your Lauderdale Marriott. These were all valid items for discussion but you repeated the same points again & again. And, once you brought up Hooter's, we had a lot of material to work with .

As this site is fairly new & growing, there have not been a lot of reviews posted here yet. But, I can remember reading negative aspects in quite a few. I think it is safe to say that the more entry-level DC's are going to have more periodic "issues" than the mid & upper tier clubs. It's simply a matter of economics (on-site reps vs. dependance on local property management companies, etc.). Should vineyarder have run into some of the issues he faced at HCC Playa Del Carmen penthouse? Of course not, but he/she did get quick responses from HCC & hopefully HCC will press the local management companies to tighten up their pre-arrival checklists.

You are doing us all a disservice by not posting reviews from your two trips. Yes, the DC's will know who you are, but so what? The more information shared here, the better.

Bottom line, one's expectation level needs to be in line with the price point. If those expectations are reasonable & not being met, then it is time for making some noise here & directly to the club.

< < This thread has veered far away from "Falling Real Estate Prices" & perhaps should be split & moved to a new thread. > >

pwrshift

There's nothing thin about me. You haven't chased me away as I keep coming back to haunt you ... and already have more posts.

I'd like to see this BBS grow, and newbies to DC's and this board may not understand the hostile attitude you and some others have to new posters who express their concerns about the financial safety of DC's and in the case of this thread the future value of DC Real Estate.

We are losing too many new posters to hostility masked as humour and if you want this board to succeed I suggest you cool it.

I find it arrogant of you to suggest I'm doing you a disservice by holding back my reviews, but I have specific reasons at this time that I don't need to explain. However, already the negatives outweigh the positives and by the end of September I will have a personal comparison of 4-5 different DC companies.

But I'd rather read your reviews instead -- have you done any?

saluki

Hostile? Me? I would like to see a single example of me being hostile to anyone here. Ribbing you for the reasons that I stated earlier, yes. Hostile to anyone on these boards? I don't think so.

I recall someone posting for a few days recently & then deciding to hang it up. I don't recall anyone giving him/her what I would consider a hard time. Have other new posters indicated they have stopped posting due to some sort of perceived unfriendly climate here?

Ok, fine. Keep your insights to yourself & continue to rip on others for their mostly positive trip reports (which can not possibly be anything but an artificially rosy review, right?).

One trial membership trip & one review (including the negatives along with the (yes) overriding positives).

DC4MS

This is an excellent point. You can't expect Solstice-ER-Quintess properties and features at HCC or UE Premiere prices.

DC Skeptic

First post here; let's see how this flies. To your first question as to the impact of falling real estate prices, I would say "be very careful". I recently exited a prominent DC after 2.5 years as a member. This was based on my concern with the financial model, not the vacation experience.

Serving as a member advisor to management I was astounded how few members seemed to care about the financial model; all they seemed to care about was their vacation experience with little regard to the sustainability of the economics. But for anyone thinking of joining, never forget that this is a business being operated by individuals hoping to become wealthy from the ownership of the real estate. So in very simple terms, if real estate is falling you should have a few questions.

And while I doubt anyone would disagree that the equity game for the principals is real estate ownership and appreciation, DCs have a major issue to contend with: they must run a successful hospitality business to attract and retain members if they want to survive to cash in on the real estate. No simple task. Particularly when many clubs got started providing unsustainable services and amenities (and to survive they have and will start to pare them back or charge more to the displeasure of existing members).

So back to falling real estate. Put yourself in the shoes of a DC owner. You likely have limited or even negative net worth at this early point in the life of this industry. And may well be spending more than you are taking in on an operating basis. So as an owner you have two problems to address. To get to positive net worth you need to either see the real estate appreciate or pay off the mortgages. We already agree real estate is declining not appreciating. That leaves the mortgages. How can you pay off the mortgages if you are burning cash operating the club? You can't...unless you take a portion of new member deposits to subsidize operating cash flow. With an 80% rate on the return of the deposit this is exactly what is going on .

But, now you have a falling economy, rising transportation costs and declining real estate values. If you think this inhibits new membership growth (I do) then you have two problems. First, if you are a member and want out, you typically need three new members in to get one old member out. No new members, no exit. To which people say "great, you can't have a 'run on the bank'." But you have another bigger problem. Your operating model is totally dependent on new member deposit cash flows to stay afloat. Without new members you will have an operating cash flow problem (this in my opinion is why you see so much new membership discounting; they must have the cash...now).

So finally, as a principal you have a negative net worth situation getting worse because of falling real estate values, and, an operating cash flow problem, so what keeps you in the game? At the moment the hope that someone else will buy you out. Otherwise why bother. Look at the consolidation already underway; these forces are real. And just because a company is bigger doesn't mean it doesn't face these issues. It may just take longer for the problems to surface ensuring the blow-up will be huge.

Last comment. I figured my fully loaded cost per night at approximately $1000. The same club may be selling nights to non-members for approximately $2000. So in essence, by having a $200,000 deposit at risk I was buying my nightly rate down by $1000. Well at 25 nights per year it would take 8 years before that deposit was covered. I had no confidence that the club would survive that long and exited. Why risk the deposit?

P.S. These cash flow problems can be addressed in many ways, but most aren't pleasant. (A) The owners can and should charge more but you still have a problem if you aren't getting cash flow from new member sign ups. (B) Make less and less of the deposit refundable (a la UR now UE) which is great for the owners but shifts your financial claim from debt to equity which means in bankruptcy you are toast. (C) Add a bunch of members without buying more property and take the money to pay down debt. Now you have fixed your owner net worth problem but will likely have a whole lot of unhappy members who see a very crowded reservation calendar. And the biggest problem: you won't be aware that any of this happened until it is too late.

Bottom line: DCs are a great concept and an awesome vacation experience. But unless you are comfortable writing off your deposit you are better off vacationing in a club that doesn't require one and pay the higher nightly rates.

Kagehitokiri

welcome to the forum DC Skeptic.
portofino continental was the only DC/tier that said they rented their properties to the public...
IMHO ER is the (first) one to really drop refund. (first with ultra plan upgrade, then drop to 75% refund, and now with new plan format) of course this is not counting the DCs that had "equity" options initially and no longer offer them.

ah, i see UR initially offered >
http://realestate.halogenguides.com/...ipods-and-more in addition to the 80% of current they still offer (with UE).
thats a rental broker, not a DC.

DC Skeptic

To your first and last point, I agree. But what I was hearing from inside my club was that the nightly option was being considered on the terms I outlined. Stay tuned I guess.

My deposit reference was that in UE, as I understand it, your initial deposit is 80% refundable, then each year for the next 10(?) the refundable portion shrinks until at the end of 10 years you have no creditor claim. You can still sell the membership at then market value but if the club goes under you can only put in a creditor claim for the unamortized portion of the original deposit. Conversely, the club recognizes as revenue each year the portion of the released member deposit claim. Very smart formula for the owners of the club but as a member you need to fully understand what you have committed to. I view my effective cost as being dues and opportunity cost of my cash PLUS the amount of the deposit claim I lose each year, in this case approximately $20,000 per year. Obviously if you successfully exit the club and recapture your deposit your cost will have been much lower but my concern was always how to get comfortable that I would see my deposit again. And after having spent 7 months on the waiting list to exit, let me tell you, it is not fun. You have no info on where on the list you are, how many are on the list, and how many new members have joined. I had no ability to tell if I was being treated fairly. It seemed like the 3 in/1 out was not being honored,