The Hardest Part... - Page 2

Kagehitokiri · 06-18-2008, 06:42 PM

Quintess Michael, at least A&K has a similar level of transparency.

i personally like having you here, and appreciate your participation in an official capacity. i also fully agree with the initial comment in your last post, and think this is a great thread/question. :thumbsup:

on the other hand, IMHO it would be better if you did not make statements that can be interpreted as subtle implications that quintess is the only DC to offer certain things. i am sure that is not your intention, but lets try to avoid any potential distractions, as it is open to interpretation. i would propose that you make a direct statement of fact, if you happen to know that quintess is the only DC to offer the thing in question, or simply make broader statements, like "some clubs offer things like... for example here at quintess we..."

pwrshift · 06-18-2008, 08:17 PM

Perhaps Quintess Michael would freely send me the financial statements of which he is so proud ... so I can see the personal levels of executive salaries, bonuses, revenues, profits, etc. - the same type of info that companies like Marriott, SPG, and others publish and provide free to anyone annually and quarterly. I wasn't aware that I could see that info from Quintess without forking over big bucks for a membership first or signing a non-disclosure agreement. Otherwise, it's still financial crap IMO that needs to come out of the closet before they'd get my money.

Kagehitokiri - On another point, do you feel Quintess Michael should be commenting on the HCC or any other 'competitor' section of this board as he has been doing?

He knows that the other DC's have enough class to not comment in the Quintess section and takes that advantage to promote his game on theirs. That IMO is not playing fair and harms the image of Quintess as well as spoiling this BBS.

My suggestion is that all DC reps should be restricted to 'general' sections and only their own section for comment. Otherwise, there could eventually be an all-out-war by the various DC reps. I can't imagine an AA rep commenting on a UA board in FlyerTalk or any other BBS.

Bourne · 06-18-2008, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwrshift

Perhaps Quintess Michael would freely send me the financial statements of which he is so proud ... so I can see the personal levels of executive salaries, bonuses, revenues, profits, etc. - the same type of info that companies like Marriott, SPG, and others publish and provide free to anyone annually and quarterly. I wasn't aware that I could see that info from Quintess without forking over big bucks for a membership first or signing a non-disclosure agreement. Otherwise, it's still financial crap IMO that needs to come out of the closet before they'd get my money.

Kagehitokiri - On another point, do you feel Quintess Michael should be commenting on the HCC or any other 'competitor' section of this board as he has been doing?

He knows that the other DC's have enough class to not comment in the Quintess section and takes that advantage to promote his game on theirs. That IMO is not playing fair and harms the image of Quintess as well as spoiling this BBS.

My suggestion is that all DC reps should be restricted to 'general' sections and only their own section for comment. Otherwise, there could eventually be an all-out-war by the various DC reps. I can't imagine an AA rep commenting on a UA board in FlyerTalk or any other BBS.

I would actually prefer a middle ground. To take the ongoing example, Michael is free to post subtle sales pitch on the Quintess forum as much as he pleases. However, he should not be "locked out" of other forums. As long as it is not a blatant sales pitch, I would infact welcome his posts on other forums.

This is not "Ask RCI" or "Ask II" kind of fourm that TUG or Timeshareforums have.

jyc · 06-18-2008, 11:05 PM

Pwrshift

In my view, you're coming out too strong on this issue. First, I agree that all clubs should share audited financials with prospective members and in my view the resignation wait list (if any) should also be an audited figure. But simply because a non-disclosure is required (if it were) why should that make it crap? That's an absurdly extreme position. They should be disclosed to relevant stakeholders which would certainly include members - but they don't need to be disclosed to the public. Starwood and MAR are public companies and that's why they disclose their financials not because they are anymore just or honest. But you don't get that from Four Seaons, Fairmont, Intrawest, etc. who are private.

Members need to do their due diligence and if efficiently priced non-equity memberships should cost less because of (1) less upside, and (2) higher potential of credit issue though perhaps still not probably. So if an equity and non-equity were priced the same with same benefits - buy the equity. Problem is they are not priced the same so consumers/members need to price the value of equity membership - should that be $200/night more than non-equity? $400? Well how about $1,000? The tradeoff has a price which is why the initial sell is a drawn-out sales process.

So don't be so extreme or binary in your view. It's just a matter of tradeoffs.

Bourne · 06-19-2008, 12:00 AM

To answer the original question posted, the hardest part back in '06 was to do due diligence on...

1. Financial Viability of the club - Previous track record and current financial status. debt to equity ratio etc...
2. Visibility and execution of growth plan - I cared about potential of growth as much as I cared about current status of the club

Two things that were lower on the list were...

1. % of non refundable deposit or potential growth of deposit - To me, it was not an investment. In the long run, the two aspects mentioned before impact dues, growth and financial viability of the club.
2. Exit clause - If the exist clause is half decent, it would not be an issue as long as the club is financially viable and grows at a steady pace.

On a personal note, I was itching to improve the size and quality of vacation accomodations and finally bit the hotel timeshare bullet in '01. I almost bought an Exclusive Resort membership back in '04-early 05. DW talked me out of it and we ended up snapping three condos in the neighborhood.

Ended up with HCC in '06. However, the itch has not completely disappeared due to obvious reasons.

Quintess Michael · 06-19-2008, 10:37 AM

Pwrshift,

What have I done to draw such wrath? Seriously?

I represent what I (and 450+ others) consider to be the best DC in existence.
I try to do so with dignity and class. I put my name -my real name- on every post.
I love my job and my company. I freely admit that I am a zealot when it comes to Quintess.
To infer that I am operating without class is simply not true.
Because I post in another clubs area?

Please.

Perhaps I am the only DC representative willing to jump into the fray?
I happily accept correction if I mis-speak (mis-write), and I even thanked you with a PM when you me to task on the HCC post I made.
I am not looking for sympathy. Nobody made me join this forum. I came here freely and with the blessing of DC4MS and several others.
If I see an incorrect posting in another forum, I correct it. I want the truth about my club out there, I don't want written inaccuracies about ANY club sitting in these posts for future members to take as fact.
This process is confusing enough without having to say to a potential member "Oops, you read that on the forum, but it should have said..."

I think Quintess beats every other club, hands down.
Because of that, I want the facts (and an occassional joke) to rule this site, not me, or you or Kage or anyone.
That's what will make it the best forum it can be, and THAT is why I am here

And I would LOVE for other DC reps to chime in here....

rwhaugan · 06-19-2008, 11:53 AM

I personally love having a DC rep on this forum. Those much more knowledgeable than I have the ability to question them in a public forum on topics I probably would never even think of. And their comments are on the record.

By establishing a presence on this forum and opening himself up to any questions and criticism I think Michael sets a positive example that all the DCs should follow. And should there be some SUBTLE sales pitch in some of his comments I can deal with that, especially since Michael has always made it clear who he works for.

I am more neutral about having a DC rep posts comments about another DC. However, if there was a "war of words" we would be the beneficiaries. In the end (after all the fluff was discarded) there would be a discussion between the inside experts from each DC about the positive and negatives of each club, which can't be bad.

John J · 06-19-2008, 11:56 AM

Since this thread was originally about the difficulty of the decision making process, I'd like to respond to that. After one year of research I joined a DC in December of '05 and I did what I thought was a ton of research. I spoke with management of the clubs and I spoke with members. It was much harder then as there were not forums like this one and ALL the clubs were new!

What I found out, and what I still believe is this: This is NOT an investment. The most similar comparison I can make is that it is like joining a country club. If you are using investment money, or money you need to count on later in life, do not join. Of course I don't want to lose any money, and I want to be able to quit when I want to, and I expect my deposit to be refunded, but once I stopped looking at a DC as an investment it made my choice much easier. I looked for the club which had the destinations I liked, which spent money on the homes to keep them nice, who was growing and expanding into areas I wanted to visit, and who responded to my needs/questions.

I don't want to belong to a cheap club. I want to belong to a first class club which I am proud to tell my friends about and take with me on a vacation. I don't want my wife telling me "we should have joined a better club" because once you are on vacation, the cost doesn't seem to matter. It better be great or you will regret it! Now, I am not rich. I work for a living so forking out a six figure deposit was not easy, but I was looking for value, not price.

Look at the membership numbers of the clubs you are considering. I feel this is the best indication on financial stability. Is the club growing? Not by acquisition but organic growth. Is anyone on the wait to sell list? If so ask for their phone number and call thim! If the club will not give you dissatisfied members as well as satisfied ones, something is fishy. If they claim no one is waiting to leave the club, ask for a better exit policy. (one in - one out rather than 3 in - one out) If no one wants out, they may consider it. Ask about their rules. If they tell you "you can book anywhere, anytime, never a problem" then they are not quite being honest with you. Ask to visit more than one home. Even if they will not give you a free night or two, they will allow you to visit the homes if you are in the area. This may mean flying to Cabo on your own dime and looking at the homes of several clubs. We did this and found a big difference between clubs!

Sorry for the long post...but almost three years after joining I am very satisfied with my club. As I don't want this to be a sales pitch, I believe you can look at my profile to see my club.

DC Skeptic · 07-02-2008, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quintess Michael

What was the hardest part of joining a Destination Club?
(besides writing the check

Just remember that your due diligence does not (or should I say should not) stop once you are member. I found my former club (PE) very open and helpful in providing info and answering questions when I joined. But if you care about ever seeing your deposit again you can never let your guard down. And while management was always very responsive to my requests I quickly came to learn that the burden of monitoring the club was practically all mine as the routine disclosure offered was less than thorough.

Ultimately (no pun intended) you must trust management because they can pretty much take the model wherever they want. For example, was PE's diversion to Pinnacle a good move for Platinum and Premiere? I don't think so.

So how do you prevent this? I don't think you can. Clubs represent member property ratios and home values but this is marketing not financial covenants. It kind of ends up being what they say it is. At the very least I would want not just representation, but a binding covenant as to how new member deposits are applied, what asset coverages need to be, loan to values, etc. Audited financials according to GAAP (have you been able to parse your club's cash flow statement?), timely info on new members, resignations, promotional activity, home procurement activity. I want to be in the club I joined and know I can get out if they go in a direction I don't like. That is a very tall order so I think any potential new member needs to think about this too.

TarheelTraveler · 07-02-2008, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DC Skeptic

Just remember that your due diligence does not (or should I say should not) stop once you are member. I found my former club (PE) very open and helpful in providing info and answering questions when I joined. But if you care about ever seeing your deposit again you can never let your guard down. And while management was always very responsive to my requests I quickly came to learn that the burden of monitoring the club was practically all mine as the routine disclosure offered was less than thorough.

Ultimately (no pun intended) you must trust management because they can pretty much take the model wherever they want. For example, was PE's diversion to Pinnacle a good move for Platinum and Premiere? I don't think so.

So how do you prevent this? I don't think you can. Clubs represent member property ratios and home values but this is marketing not financial covenants. It kind of ends up being what they say it is. At the very least I would want not just representation, but a binding covenant as to how new member deposits are applied, what asset coverages need to be, loan to values, etc. Audited financials according to GAAP (have you been able to parse your club's cash flow statement?), timely info on new members, resignations, promotional activity, home procurement activity. I want to be in the club I joined and know I can get out if they go in a direction I don't like. That is a very tall order so I think any potential new member needs to think about this too.

DC Skeptic has more eloquently stated why I have always and will likely continue to have a problem with most non-equity DCs. Management can pretty much do what they want with your typical non-equity DC. Maybe this is a good thing, as they have more flexibility, but in my book and perhaps it's because of my line of work, management in my experience does what makes sense for management, often not what makes sense for the shareholder/investor and definitely not what typically makes sense for the consumer. I have routinely been ignored or gotten the beat down on this forum when I ask how new member deposits are applied, loan to values, cash flow, audited financials and information flow to the members. IMHO, the industry and members (prospective and current) should be primarily focused on the financial issues, rather than the typical focus on the biggest and best houses for the least amount of money and dues, economcs be dam***. At least some of the new clubs that have focused on the existing models and done their models differently will likely put some pressure on these issues.

Kagehitokiri · 07-02-2008, 02:06 PM

maybe there should be a set policy on this forum that does not tolerate certain personal comments or "beat downs" etc...

DC Skeptic · 07-02-2008, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TarheelTraveler

IMHO, the industry and members (prospective and current) should be primarily focused on the financial issues

-

TarheelTraveler · 07-02-2008, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kagehitokiri

maybe there should be a set policy on this forum that does not tolerate certain personal comments or "beat downs" etc...

Unlike a lot of other forums, people on this forum are in general pretty good about not making personal comments. However, usually if you ask tough questions about financial matters, you either get no response or a non-response. Maybe this is because of NDAs, the great vacations that people are taking, the fact they want their club to succeed, or a combination, but I do think it would be helpful to have more detailed information on the forum (and other sites on DCs), so as to raise the bar for the whole industry.

Rob V · 07-02-2008, 05:34 PM

Tarheel Traveler et al,
What specific financial metrics do you believe should be transparent? You've obviously stated key indicators such as allocation of member deposits, debt to value, cash flow statements, and financials. In terms of transparency is your goal one to one transparency (as in DC to prospect or member) or one to the public (DC to all the world). Thanks and good line of thinking.

Rob

pwrshift · 07-02-2008, 07:45 PM

Personally, I'd like the same info I get about company and personnel happenings within Marriott, Starwood, and other public companies. If I freely loaned $500,000 to a company so they could buy equity (for themselves) at no cost, why shouldn't I know exactly what kind of incomes (and raises and bonuses) they take home from my money ... and if I don't agree with the financial data can be critical in public and online media. A non-disclosure agreement keeps the lid on bad financial practices.

With Marriott you can see which of his kids he brings into the fold and how much he pays them and make a better decision on whether to continue as a shareholder or cash in.

Bourne · 07-02-2008, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwrshift

Personally, I'd like the same info I get about company and personnel happenings within Marriott, Starwood, and other public companies. If I freely loaned $500,000 to a company so they could buy equity (for themselves) at no cost, why shouldn't I know exactly what kind of incomes (and raises and bonuses) they take home from my money ... and if I don't agree with the financial data can be critical in public and online media. A non-disclosure agreement keeps the lid on bad financial practices.

With Marriott you can see which of his kids he brings into the fold and how much he pays them and make a better decision on whether to continue as a shareholder or cash in.

There is another side of the coin.

Companies like Four Seasons and Hilton are privately held and do not release information like publicly held companies like Starwood or Marriott.

That does not make them bad comanies to invest in.

06-18-2008, 06:42 PM	#21
Kagehitokiri Super Moderator Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1,397	Re: The Hardest Part... Quintess Michael, at least A&K has a similar level of transparency. i personally like having you here, and appreciate your participation in an official capacity. i also fully agree with the initial comment in your last post, and think this is a great thread/question. :thumbsup: on the other hand, IMHO it would be better if you did not make statements that can be interpreted as subtle implications that quintess is the only DC to offer certain things. i am sure that is not your intention, but lets try to avoid any potential distractions, as it is open to interpretation. i would propose that you make a direct statement of fact, if you happen to know that quintess is the only DC to offer the thing in question, or simply make broader statements, like "some clubs offer things like... for example here at quintess we..."

06-18-2008, 08:17 PM	#22
pwrshift Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 305	The competitive advantage... Perhaps Quintess Michael would freely send me the financial statements of which he is so proud ... so I can see the personal levels of executive salaries, bonuses, revenues, profits, etc. - the same type of info that companies like Marriott, SPG, and others publish and provide free to anyone annually and quarterly. I wasn't aware that I could see that info from Quintess without forking over big bucks for a membership first or signing a non-disclosure agreement. Otherwise, it's still financial crap IMO that needs to come out of the closet before they'd get my money. Kagehitokiri - On another point, do you feel Quintess Michael should be commenting on the HCC or any other 'competitor' section of this board as he has been doing? He knows that the other DC's have enough class to not comment in the Quintess section and takes that advantage to promote his game on theirs. That IMO is not playing fair and harms the image of Quintess as well as spoiling this BBS. My suggestion is that all DC reps should be restricted to 'general' sections and only their own section for comment. Otherwise, there could eventually be an all-out-war by the various DC reps. I can't imagine an AA rep commenting on a UA board in FlyerTalk or any other BBS.

06-18-2008, 11:05 PM	#24
jyc Junior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 7	Re: The Hardest Part... Pwrshift In my view, you're coming out too strong on this issue. First, I agree that all clubs should share audited financials with prospective members and in my view the resignation wait list (if any) should also be an audited figure. But simply because a non-disclosure is required (if it were) why should that make it crap? That's an absurdly extreme position. They should be disclosed to relevant stakeholders which would certainly include members - but they don't need to be disclosed to the public. Starwood and MAR are public companies and that's why they disclose their financials not because they are anymore just or honest. But you don't get that from Four Seaons, Fairmont, Intrawest, etc. who are private. Members need to do their due diligence and if efficiently priced non-equity memberships should cost less because of (1) less upside, and (2) higher potential of credit issue though perhaps still not probably. So if an equity and non-equity were priced the same with same benefits - buy the equity. Problem is they are not priced the same so consumers/members need to price the value of equity membership - should that be $200/night more than non-equity? $400? Well how about $1,000? The tradeoff has a price which is why the initial sell is a drawn-out sales process. So don't be so extreme or binary in your view. It's just a matter of tradeoffs.

06-19-2008, 12:00 AM	#25
Bourne Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: 60601 Posts: 314 Club: High Country Club, Pinnacle Yachts	Re: The Hardest Part... To answer the original question posted, the hardest part back in '06 was to do due diligence on... 1. Financial Viability of the club - Previous track record and current financial status. debt to equity ratio etc... 2. Visibility and execution of growth plan - I cared about potential of growth as much as I cared about current status of the club Two things that were lower on the list were... 1. % of non refundable deposit or potential growth of deposit - To me, it was not an investment. In the long run, the two aspects mentioned before impact dues, growth and financial viability of the club. 2. Exit clause - If the exist clause is half decent, it would not be an issue as long as the club is financially viable and grows at a steady pace. On a personal note, I was itching to improve the size and quality of vacation accomodations and finally bit the hotel timeshare bullet in '01. I almost bought an Exclusive Resort membership back in '04-early 05. DW talked me out of it and we ended up snapping three condos in the neighborhood. Ended up with HCC in '06. However, the itch has not completely disappeared due to obvious reasons. __________________ The Nile is a river in Egypt...... Last edited by Bourne; 07-02-2008 at 03:54 PM.

06-19-2008, 10:37 AM	#26
Quintess Michael Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Denver Posts: 142 Club: Quintess	Re: The Hardest Part... Pwrshift, What have I done to draw such wrath? Seriously? I represent what I (and 450+ others) consider to be the best DC in existence. I try to do so with dignity and class. I put my name -my real name- on every post. I love my job and my company. I freely admit that I am a zealot when it comes to Quintess. To infer that I am operating without class is simply not true. Because I post in another clubs area? Please. Perhaps I am the only DC representative willing to jump into the fray? I happily accept correction if I mis-speak (mis-write), and I even thanked you with a PM when you me to task on the HCC post I made. I am not looking for sympathy. Nobody made me join this forum. I came here freely and with the blessing of DC4MS and several others. If I see an incorrect posting in another forum, I correct it. I want the truth about my club out there, I don't want written inaccuracies about ANY club sitting in these posts for future members to take as fact. This process is confusing enough without having to say to a potential member "Oops, you read that on the forum, but it should have said..." I think Quintess beats every other club, hands down. Because of that, I want the facts (and an occassional joke) to rule this site, not me, or you or Kage or anyone. That's what will make it the best forum it can be, and THAT is why I am here And I would LOVE for other DC reps to chime in here.... __________________ Michael Aumock Director, Membership Development Quintess, The Leading Residences of the World

06-19-2008, 11:53 AM	#27
rwhaugan Junior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 24	Re: The Hardest Part... I personally love having a DC rep on this forum. Those much more knowledgeable than I have the ability to question them in a public forum on topics I probably would never even think of. And their comments are on the record. By establishing a presence on this forum and opening himself up to any questions and criticism I think Michael sets a positive example that all the DCs should follow. And should there be some SUBTLE sales pitch in some of his comments I can deal with that, especially since Michael has always made it clear who he works for. I am more neutral about having a DC rep posts comments about another DC. However, if there was a "war of words" we would be the beneficiaries. In the end (after all the fluff was discarded) there would be a discussion between the inside experts from each DC about the positive and negatives of each club, which can't be bad.

06-19-2008, 11:56 AM	#28
John J Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Central California Posts: 6 Club: Quintess, LRW	Re: The Hardest Part... Since this thread was originally about the difficulty of the decision making process, I'd like to respond to that. After one year of research I joined a DC in December of '05 and I did what I thought was a ton of research. I spoke with management of the clubs and I spoke with members. It was much harder then as there were not forums like this one and ALL the clubs were new! What I found out, and what I still believe is this: This is NOT an investment. The most similar comparison I can make is that it is like joining a country club. If you are using investment money, or money you need to count on later in life, do not join. Of course I don't want to lose any money, and I want to be able to quit when I want to, and I expect my deposit to be refunded, but once I stopped looking at a DC as an investment it made my choice much easier. I looked for the club which had the destinations I liked, which spent money on the homes to keep them nice, who was growing and expanding into areas I wanted to visit, and who responded to my needs/questions. I don't want to belong to a cheap club. I want to belong to a first class club which I am proud to tell my friends about and take with me on a vacation. I don't want my wife telling me "we should have joined a better club" because once you are on vacation, the cost doesn't seem to matter. It better be great or you will regret it! Now, I am not rich. I work for a living so forking out a six figure deposit was not easy, but I was looking for value, not price. Look at the membership numbers of the clubs you are considering. I feel this is the best indication on financial stability. Is the club growing? Not by acquisition but organic growth. Is anyone on the wait to sell list? If so ask for their phone number and call thim! If the club will not give you dissatisfied members as well as satisfied ones, something is fishy. If they claim no one is waiting to leave the club, ask for a better exit policy. (one in - one out rather than 3 in - one out) If no one wants out, they may consider it. Ask about their rules. If they tell you "you can book anywhere, anytime, never a problem" then they are not quite being honest with you. Ask to visit more than one home. Even if they will not give you a free night or two, they will allow you to visit the homes if you are in the area. This may mean flying to Cabo on your own dime and looking at the homes of several clubs. We did this and found a big difference between clubs! Sorry for the long post...but almost three years after joining I am very satisfied with my club. As I don't want this to be a sales pitch, I believe you can look at my profile to see my club.

07-02-2008, 02:06 PM	#31
Kagehitokiri Super Moderator Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1,397	Re: The Hardest Part... maybe there should be a set policy on this forum that does not tolerate certain personal comments or "beat downs" etc...

07-02-2008, 05:34 PM	#34
Rob V Junior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Atlanta Posts: 12 Club: Equity Estates	Re: The Hardest Part... Tarheel Traveler et al, What specific financial metrics do you believe should be transparent? You've obviously stated key indicators such as allocation of member deposits, debt to value, cash flow statements, and financials. In terms of transparency is your goal one to one transparency (as in DC to prospect or member) or one to the public (DC to all the world). Thanks and good line of thinking. Rob __________________ Rob Vaka Vice President, Investor Relations Equity Estates

07-02-2008, 07:45 PM	#35
pwrshift Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 305	Re: The Hardest Part... Personally, I'd like the same info I get about company and personnel happenings within Marriott, Starwood, and other public companies. If I freely loaned $500,000 to a company so they could buy equity (for themselves) at no cost, why shouldn't I know exactly what kind of incomes (and raises and bonuses) they take home from my money ... and if I don't agree with the financial data can be critical in public and online media. A non-disclosure agreement keeps the lid on bad financial practices. With Marriott you can see which of his kids he brings into the fold and how much he pays them and make a better decision on whether to continue as a shareholder or cash in.