PerryM

The major players in the DC market are still watching and waiting to carve out a chunk of customers that they understand. While at the Westin Maui timeshare (WKORV) 5 weeks ago we took a tour of their units – a 2BR probably costs $2M like it does at the Honua Kai for an ocean view. I don’t know why DC folks would feel like this is trash and never frequent the place.

While at the Westin I head story after story about folks buying a month at a time, 4 * $80k = $320k and thought nothing of it. Isn’t this the very market that DCs seem to want to capture? It makes much more sense to go after the high end timeshare market and give them a product that they now buy.

Of course the timeshare owner expects ownership and as a general rule the DC market doesn’t allow for that right now.

I really like the concept of a DC – one that I’m in the process of describing here – one that already exists with IntraWest and one that Marriott, Westin, and Disney timeshare owners can easily relate to.

But there apparently is a market for folks who spend $400k with no need for the consumer protections afforded timeshares or fractional ownerships. That is going to have to change if the DC market expects to survive an onslaught of companies who will devour the DC market at some point.

__________________
Forget global warming - we need to worry about global cooling - more. Everyone start your cars - quick!

Perry

Bourne

It is not about the money. (80*4=320K)

Mid Level DCs ( 3-5 Mil ) ER, UE Elite, Quintess or Lusso
...
2. However, the size is a limitation. They want the same quality in an expansive home with the same level of service.
...

Tell me. If you had 320K to spend, would you settle for a 2Br unit in a hotel resort or a 3-4 Bedroom exclusive home. Service and furnishing cannot be even compared.

PerryM

Since its basically the wife and I now a 2BR in a Westin is just great. I took a tour of the HCC in Stowe Vermont and it was basically an upscale timeshare with an extra bedroom or two. For large families who are tired of Westin and Marriotts I guess it would be great.

Willie Sutton, the bank robber, said it best;"I rob banks because that's where the money is". Well, the timeshare folks have spent 50 years finding where the money is and the high end timeshares is the market DCs should plunder if they want the money.

As much as some DC folks might object the timeshare industry will probably have an impact on DCs.

As a high end timeshare owner I'm ready to buy a DC as long as they have the protections I'm used to with timeshares. I see no reason why a DC can't do this and buy a wide variety of condos/homes that we will get a kick out of using.

Anyway I hope to be done with my final presentation of my ideal DC by Friday.

__________________
Forget global warming - we need to worry about global cooling - more. Everyone start your cars - quick!

Perry

3DH

First let me say that I am sorry you don't feel "welcomed" by the super moderators here... this goes to both you, PerryM, as well as pwrshift -- I aplogize for my "harsh" comments, if that is how they are taken.

Perry, you are obviously passionate about your feelings toward timeshares vs DCs... I hope you are the founder of your own DC one day and can tell your success story to all of us who will be here waiting with baited breath. However, in the mean time, please let us who are, in your mind, selfish, snobish or stupid enough (I will let you fill in the blanks here as I am certain you have something in mind) to join a DC and actually enjoy it do so.

And, for the record, I am a timeshare owner, as well... that is why I can truly tell you that there is a drastic contrast between timeshare and DC accommodations, service and all that is associated with them.

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"Boutique" is better! Another extremely satisfied LUSSO member!

Bourne

As a high end timeshare owner I'm ready to buy a DC as long as they have the protections I'm used to with timeshares. I see no reason why a DC can't do this and buy a wide variety of condos/homes that we will get a kick out of using.

We concur and differ in opinion.

We both agree that a hotel company that maintains high end timeshares and fractionals( FS, Starwood, Hilton, Marriott, Intrawest etc. ) will eventually jump into the DC market.

What we differ in opinion is the segment they would go after. Your opinion is that they would go after the premium segment with the core growth coming from high end timeshare owners.

My opinion is that they will build from ground up or buy out an existing DC in the 3-5 mil segment.

A hotel company DC may show up in the premium segment. It may even grow bigger than HCC( the only company ) in that segment. But 5% of the market is hardly a splash.

PerryM

To me the DC industry is a bubble waiting to burst. One of my purposes of this thread is to alert folks that there are many problems with DCs and that alternatives are already showing up. The DC industry is but a decade old and the founding DC is already history. Many want to dismiss this as “A one of a kind phenomenon” – it should instead be a huge warning buoy that there are treacherous waters ahead for the industry and the members.

I’ll post my vision for DCs and be on my way – I feel that I’ve done my best to alert folks to the dangers. If folks do their due diligence and find that the risk/reward ratio favors becoming a DC member then that’s fine with me.

I do look forward to the day that a DC offers us alternatives to our condo-hotel, fractional, and timeshare ownership – we plan to do a lot of traveling when we retire and we expect to travel in plush accommodations.

__________________
Forget global warming - we need to worry about global cooling - more. Everyone start your cars - quick!

Perry

DJTraveler

I think those of us on this site are interested in quality club experience with the intened benefits - and timeshare condos /points are not it.

Also, #5 is, unfortunately, not the case. A little more research is always valuable.... 100% deposit return obligations, 1 year or less committments to return deposit after resignation, unlimited use for not enough dues and of course, the too good to be true (and expensive) pay for a weeks vacation if no Club properties are available.... yes, they still exist.

Kagehitokiri

DJTraveler,

1. only 2/14 clubs in the list here offer <100% refund in 1st year. only 4/14 offer <100% after 1st year. are you saying thats not a good thing

2. only 2 clubs offer unlimited use at no additional fee - solstice and lusso. they seem to be in pretty good shape. when you say "enough dues" im not sure whether you mean in terms of their stated business plan / financials, or your own judgment. in the end it is a personal judgment.

3. the only pay for rental thing im aware of is ER's, and its nothing like T&H's. perhaps an ER member could comment on whether theyve ever seen every metro/mountain/beach destination booked for advance reservations. i wouldnt be surprised if once in a lifetime options were also included in those destination categories now.

4. there are currently DCs with points or similar options, and there will be more. im sure some people find them appealing. they are not appealing to me personally, but i do find DHH's options interesting.

PerryM

Just got my April VRBO newsletter.

Here is a typical property up for rent on VRBO. No need to fork out hundreds of thousands of dollars - just rent what you need and no commitment.

VRBO is an ideal site to start a DC club that would require NO money up front and fellow condo owners can be part of various levels at VRBO - from the top condos for rent to the least expensive out there.

I know, I know, its not as convenient as paying $400k to join and $25+k per year but VRBO could give the DC industry a run for its money if it wanted. You work with the actual owner of the condo, no middle men to suck the life out of your hard earned money.

Skiers click here It's a 3BR with loft and a snowballs throw from the action at Big Sky. Rent by the day (Christmas has a 4 nite min) and the most you can spend is $6,425 during Christmas week.


VRBO has 100,000+ condos up for rent in all parts of the world.

Well, anyway, for those who don't know about VRBO just what other things didn't you consider while plunking out $400k?

For those of you who are consumed with "Lost opportunity" 5% of $400k is a cool $20k per year and Christmas week costs but $6,425 leaving you $13,575 to spend on other things this year.

__________________
Forget global warming - we need to worry about global cooling - more. Everyone start your cars - quick!

Perry

ladavis

Perry, I see that nominations are open for WorldMark Board of Directors. Nominate yourself, get elected, and then lead them into the DC market with your vision. That is your best shot at a DC venture!

As the owner of timeshares, a fractional, a resort condo, a second home and a DC membership, I believe I can honestly speak as an informed participant in this discussion that I would NEVER invest my money in a club that you, or anyone like you, would be given decision-making authority. I have a difficult time believing you have ever held a position of authority with the way you "voice" your opinions on this forum. Contrary to your belief, I'm sure; many of us who have joined and are happy with DC memberships first researched the backgrounds of those who would be running the companies. I don't think there are many here who would invest $250K or more in a company headed by a timeshare owner with a chip on his shoulder who felt it necessary to demean the industry he intends to lead.

Don't worry about warning us of impending doom as no one here takes you seriously. Going back to TUG and warning them to not join a DC is a better option for you.

As an addendum, my timeshares are the most expendable assets I own.

PerryM

I understand that many DC owners seem to be very touchy when a discussion of DCs occurs - I've felt this on TUG too. I simply point out that there are many alternatives to a DC and each has pros and cons; as does DCs.

VRBO is a viable alternative to condos/homes that will rival many DC units with NO up front costs.

Condo-hotel owners, like IntraWest owners, can put up their units, in lieu of cash, and join thousands of fellow condo-hotel owners to form their own DC.

My beef with the DC industry is best summarized with my definition of a DC:

"DC members buy a rich guy a condo and then pay him rent to use it while getting back 80% of their investment when they leave".

I have no beef with DC members - you've all done your due diligence and found the risk/reward ratio favoring buying a membership. I don't challenge anyone's decision.

I am simply pointing out obvious alternatives to the generally accepted definition of a DC right now (not mine but the industries).

Guys, I'm just one voice out here - I highly recommend that folks avoid DCs as they stand right now. I'd hope that we can continue a civilized discussion without getting into personal attacks. But maybe I've struck a nerve here?

I'm almost done with my ideal DC and then you guys can get back to your normally scheduled chats...

__________________
Forget global warming - we need to worry about global cooling - more. Everyone start your cars - quick!

Perry

TarheelTraveler

As others have pointed out, VRBO properties and typical DC properties are generally not comparable. I've rented on VRBO. It's often a crapshoot as to what you get when you actually show up. They often don't have professional management in place, so no on-site help when problems occur, much less concierge, club membership or resort services. You're pretty much on your own in my experience. The furnishings and amenities are never up to par. You can have a good experience with a VRBO property, but there is no consistency.

Your point about the cost would also not apply to an equity DC or a non-equity DC that offers an appreciation component.

Kagehitokiri

i generally agree with the analysis in Bourne's last 3 posts, and TarheelTraveler's last post.

i would say i view destination clubs as a part of a portfolio - the only part that i will buy into. (not including other memberships which provide travel benefits)

i view hotels/resorts/private rentals/onekey as other parts of that portfolio, where i simply pay as i go. (and i see onekey as kind of like a temporary membership which provides the benefit of a substantial discount)

DC4MS

VRBO.com is a good alternative, but not a replacement for most Destination Club members I speak with. Most people use VRBO to access destinations that are not a part of their own club, but their experiences have been far from trouble-free. Consistency has been a major concern along with deceptive descriptions, misleading photos and false promises from many VRBO listings.

In fact, it was the bad experience of Steve Case renting an expensive home that led him to want to seek an alternative.

VRBO has a great idea with horrible execution and is perhaps one of the worst designed websites in the travel industry. They define the phrase "Non-User Friendly"

Kagehitokiri

its not great, but its not THAT bad. any site that forces you to wait through animations (like Winvian) goes to the top of my list there.

i ran into a few new hotel/resort sites with unskippable intros recently as well.