An open letter to the DC industry... - Page 5

ladavis · 04-04-2008, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kagehitokiri

thanks. that seems pretty limited to me. do they give all the regions? if so i could count the number of properties in each.

CLUB REGIONS

Hawaii
- Kohala Coast, Big Island
- Wailea, Maui

Central Mountain
- Vail & Beaver Creek
- Deer Valley
- Jackson Hole
- Snowmass
- Telluride

Mexico and Central America
- Los Cabos, Mexico
- Real del Mar, Puerto Vallarta, Mexico
- Peninsula Papagayo, Costa Rica

Caribbean
- Little Dix Bay, British Virgin Islands
- Turks and Caicos
- Grand Cayman
- Abaco Bay, Bahamas

South Florida
- Bonita Beach, Naples, Florida
- Miami Beach, Florida
- Ft. Lauderdale, Florida

Chicago, Illinois

London, England

New York City, New York

Paris, France

San Francisco, California

Scottsdale, Arizona

Kagehitokiri · 04-04-2008, 06:35 PM

whoa, all those at the end are considered regions? thats a lot less limited than i thought.

exclusive resorts >

mexico/central america 77
central mountain 52 + 20
Hawaii 19 + 40
caribbean 37 + 10
south florida - 30

new york - 28
scottsdale - 25
chicago - 6 + 16
san francisco - 6 + 12
london - 7
paris - 7

? sea island - 0 + 24

3DH · 04-04-2008, 06:37 PM

Lusso does have a somewhat unique provision (with regard to the destination club scenario) available for its members. One time a year, at any non-holiday time, if a member absolutely has to have a particular week in a particular lifestyle (beach, ski or leisure -- metropolitan is excluded)... the Club will, at their expense, make a comparable property available.

According to the membership director, whom I just spoke to, this amenity has never had to be utilized since the inception of the club. This certainly speaks to the access and availability of the club due to its structure.

ladavis · 04-04-2008, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kagehitokiri

whoa, all those at the end are considered regions? thats a lot less limited than i thought.

mexico/central america 77
central mountain 52+20
Hawaii 19+40
caribbean 37+10
south florida - 30

new york - 28
scottsdale - 25
chicago - 6+16
san francisco - 6+12
london - 7
paris - 7

sea island - 0+24

Except for Paris, those other "regions/cities" listed individually almost always have availability for advance reservations.

Kagehitokiri · 04-04-2008, 06:51 PM

thanks 3DH.

lusso >

beach - 14 + at least 4
ski - 8 + at least 2
leisure - 2

FYI ive copied the last 8 posts to a new thread >
which clubs will sometimes rent on demand?

DC4MS · 04-04-2008, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwrshift

I was offered an Ultimate Resorts membership yesterday for $27,000.

Hmmmmm

I am not sure if this is real or a joke.

If it is real, then please post some details in a new thread in the Ultimate Resort Forum.

LTTravel · 04-04-2008, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DC4MS

I am not sure if this is real or a joke.

If it is real, then please post some details in a new thread in the Ultimate Resort Forum.

That is the price for the two year, 15 day signature discovery membership.

Bourne · 04-05-2008, 12:36 AM

with no money back...

it is a prepaid trial option...

PerryM · 04-05-2008, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTTravel

Actually, DHH allows you to "sell" (transfer) your membership. If you had purchased at $25,000 a week when it was available it has an "intrinsic" value of $20,000. You can transfer that week to anyone for whatever the market will bear. Currently, the price for one week is $59,000 and the "intrinsic value" (80%) is $47,200, or a net loss of $11,800 plus the potential investment loss of $59,000. So if you sell your week for $31,800, the person who purchases the week benefits from less invested and still gets the same return if he decides to cash in, or a net profit to the original owner of $6,800 on the original purchase.

All right, one DC offers the ability to use the free market to resell a DC membership!

So how come ALL DC's don't?

The example of a golf course is something I understand - it's a private club where folks get together and they can set any standards they want to include/exclude folks - I agree.

But at DC? They are simply a mini motel chain, like a timeshare, and I know of NO timeshare that has restrictions on individuals. If you have the cash they don't care what your education level is.

Now if there is a DC that has exclusion rules to join, like keeping out all lawyers, for example, I'd like to know. If there are no exclusion rules then it makes NO sense to prevent a DC member to sell their membership on eBay. Obviously one DC agrees with me.

DosMasCervesos · 04-06-2008, 01:41 PM

Perry,

First, I appreciate your comments and logic. It is nice to have a devil's advocate opinion around here even if I don't agree with everything (most?) of your points.

I personally don't believe I would ever join any type of point based DC (or timeshare). I currently have a fixed week timeshare (bought as a resell) and a membership to HCC.

Quote:

Points selling price:
Points selling price will be calculated thus: The total appraised value of existing units is divided by the total of all Points Calendars. This price will be calculated on an as needed basis.

I agree that a point based model is the fairest way for members to bid on a resource, but it requires an extra calculation in the member's mind to figure out how many days/weeks they have a year. I want a simple system. I want to know that I will always N weeks of usage per year. Your model determines the number of days based on a number of ever changing variables. I know that I want to take N weeks of vacation a year and I'm willing to spend D dollars a year for that. That is as complex as I want the equation to be. I don't want to have to figure out points calculations. I don't want the value of my points to change year-to-year. This isn't because I don't like or understand math. Maybe the problem is I do math all day long for my profession.

I also fear that the valuation of my original points would decrease with time. So where my original purchase of 4000 points would easily get me a week at that Cabo property I love, 3 years later because of some complicated valuation process, it now only gets me 4 days in Cabo. Maybe that wouldn't happen, but my problem is the complexity and uncertainty of the process.

As an example, my family recently did a portrait photography session with a very high-end photographer. Her price sheet was amazingly simplified. She had a list of prices based on the print size you wanted, with 2 additional possible modifications. If you want a canvas print it costs $125 more (no matter what size print). And if you want something really nice like a gallery wrapped canvas or a giclee print, then you double the price of the print. Now we all know that her costs for the giclee print or wrapped canvas isn't really double her cost of the print. Her pricing structure was so simple that I loved it, even if it wasn't the best deal for me. It was easy to understand, and that was more important.

I know that DCCs have reservation usage rules which are used to help control the utilization of a scarce resource. But I can easily understand those. A point based system is too far removed from what I ultimately want to purchase. I don't want to purchase some points commodity that I don't understand. I want weeks of vacation.

Matt

Bourne · 04-06-2008, 02:16 PM

Quote:

I also fear that the valuation of my original points would decrease with time. So where my original purchase of 4000 points would easily get me a week at that Cabo property I love, 3 years later because of some complicated valuation process, it now only gets me 4 days in Cabo. Maybe that wouldn't happen, but my problem is the complexity and uncertainty of the process.
Matt

A classic example of this is HGVC and SVO. As much as they tried to keep the points based system consistent across properties, they had to move to a separate point structure for new properties.

Over time, it adds to the complication. I sold 14K workth of HGVC points for this reason. I want simplicity. May not be the best option but most DC members swear by it.

PerryM · 04-06-2008, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DosMasCervesos

Perry,

First, I appreciate your comments and logic. It is nice to have a devil's advocate opinion around here even if I don't agree with everything (most?) of your points.

I personally don't believe I would ever join any type of point based DC (or timeshare). I currently have a fixed week timeshare (bought as a resell) and a membership to HCC.

I agree that a point based model is the fairest way for members to bid on a resource, but it requires an extra calculation in the member's mind to figure out how many days/weeks they have a year. I want a simple system. I want to know that I will always N weeks of usage per year. Your model determines the number of days based on a number of ever changing variables. I know that I want to take N weeks of vacation a year and I'm willing to spend D dollars a year for that. That is as complex as I want the equation to be. I don't want to have to figure out points calculations. I don't want the value of my points to change year-to-year. This isn't because I don't like or understand math. Maybe the problem is I do math all day long for my profession.

I also fear that the valuation of my original points would decrease with time. So where my original purchase of 4000 points would easily get me a week at that Cabo property I love, 3 years later because of some complicated valuation process, it now only gets me 4 days in Cabo. Maybe that wouldn't happen, but my problem is the complexity and uncertainty of the process.

As an example, my family recently did a portrait photography session with a very high-end photographer. Her price sheet was amazingly simplified. She had a list of prices based on the print size you wanted, with 2 additional possible modifications. If you want a canvas print it costs $125 more (no matter what size print). And if you want something really nice like a gallery wrapped canvas or a giclee print, then you double the price of the print. Now we all know that her costs for the giclee print or wrapped canvas isn't really double her cost of the print. Her pricing structure was so simple that I loved it, even if it wasn't the best deal for me. It was easy to understand, and that was more important.

I know that DCCs have reservation usage rules which are used to help control the utilization of a scarce resource. But I can easily understand those. A point based system is too far removed from what I ultimately want to purchase. I don't want to purchase some points commodity that I don't understand. I want weeks of vacation.

Matt

I have a pet duck Gertrude who has won many duck contests for “best of breed”, obedience training, and overall a fine specimen of a duck. I’d like to exchange my Gertrude for a Christmas week stay in Vail – right next to a lift. How would we normally handle this situation?

Would I roam ski club chat rooms looking to exchange Gertrude for a Week 51? Would I place ads in the paper hoping that a Vail condo owner appreciates Gertrude? Would I start a web site “GertrudeForVail.com?”. Of course not.

I would rely on free markets, several of them, to exchange Gertrude for a Vail week 51.

First I’d announce at the next Duck Show my desire to sell Gertrude to folks who appreciate “Best of breed”. I’d get US dollars – a currency.

Next I’d take that currency and check VRBO.com and find exactly the unit I want and exchange the US dollars for a week 51 in Vail next to a lift.

But the DC world is stuck in stupid with weeks – just like timeshare exchange companies for the most part – I have an August week in Burnt Earth Arizona, during the annual scorpion races, and want to exchange into Christmas week in Vail. It can’t be done and my week goes unused and I have ZERO exchange power.

Currencies should be at the basis of any fair exchange – that currency can be Points which are 100% related to what a 3rd party will pay (rent) and thus all parties feel that they are working on a level playing field.

As a DC grows and various units are added they all will be worth different values to the DC and the members and between members. Right now all of this seems to be a secret – I get 30 days usage per year and some units I don’t want to use and some I want to use for 2,3, or 4 weeks at a time. This is child’s play with a currency system.

Why DC’s adopted a week system is beyond me, it should have been a simple currency system like Resort2resort uses – that way all kinds of units can be incorporated in a DC and DCs can offer exchange privileges between DCs – child’s play.

In my dream DC there is NO devaluation of Points – each year the total real estate value of all units is divided by the total number of Points generated and that price is used when a new unit is added (Real estate value per Point). All points float with the ups and downs of the real estate market.

Folks love to shop – I shop each day and with the internet I have search engines amplify my purchasing power with cheaper prices and far more choices.

With my Dream DC there is NO reason why unrelated DCs can’t comingle and offer thousands of DCs for their members to use – because the members are the owners who use a common currency - Points. (There could be exchange rates quoted) You can’t do that with the members owning nothing more than a few sheets of paper – the sales contract.

Just as Google is about to decimate the cell phone industry with their open operating system for cell phones so can some new DC company decimate the archaic DC industry as it stands now. Just try to sell your membership and move over to a company who has YOUR best interests as its founding principles; it could be a lot of folks trying to sell to a few buyers - we all know what that means.

The freer and open the market the more the consumer wins.

LTTravel · 04-06-2008, 04:44 PM

Sounds like DHH is close to what you are asking for.

1. You can resell your membership
2. Holidays take 2 advanced reservation tokens, other weeks take only one.
3. You can reserve anywhere from 2-14 days at a time
4. Some properties require more "days" than others
86ft yacht- 8 days for one week
53 ft sailboat- 3 days for one week usage
Auckland- 5 days for 7 days usage, etc.
Occasional specials.
5. Excellent availability

Maybe once they get a few more destinations, you will accept them, but then the price point is not where you want it. It was $25,000 per week but it is now up to $59,000 per week.

Whitesand · 04-06-2008, 05:43 PM

I joined a DC to not have to spend any time or energy booking my family vacations. I want a nice place to stay with some concierge services, and I don't want to spend time figuring out points, trading in a system, listing weeks online or surfing the internet looking on VRBO.

DCs make vacation planning very easy for people who are very busy and value their time highly. If it costs me a little extra or if I don't use every last day, I don't really care. I joined for convenience first and value second. If DCs went to a complex time share model with a system that could be beaten it would defeat the purpose of the DC for me and I would quit. Likewise if I had availability problems I would quit. I have never had a problem getting what I want when I want it...but I don't travel at Christmas and New years ever.

I think a points system would make the DC club model unattractive to those of us who want simplicity and service. There is probably a large market out there of timeshare owners who would like a points model but it isn't the current DC members.

PerryM · 04-06-2008, 08:57 PM

Someone PMed me asking about the complexity of a Point oriented DC – you probably do something very similar already, I know I do every day.

A stock portfolio is much more complex than a Point oriented DC – you are converting Cash (A currency) into shares of a stock (Another form of currency) that changes, in price, up and down. You deal with the changes in the price of the stocks, stock splits, dividend payments, and finally back to cash (A currency) when you sell. You are using 2 currency systems in this example.

I think someone forking out $100k+ probably has a stock fund or even more complex a mutual fund and folks do just fine. Using a Point DC is no more complex than shopping – you have Points to shop with and reservations are listed in Points. It’s no more complex than going to Wal-Mart and buying something.

What’s complex is the archaic week system that most DCs use. You get 14 to 28+ days and must be use modulus 7 math (7 days per reservation) and then use complex schemes for holiday usage or simple schemes that prevent you from doing what you really want.

Shopping with a currency is so simple we do it from the time we hear the ice cream truck (gong gong man) rumble by and run out the door with some currency and exchange it for a cool and delicious treat. You don't run out the door with 7 used baseballs and barter for an ice cream bar.

Come on guys, you can do it…

04-04-2008, 06:35 PM	#82
Kagehitokiri Super Moderator Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1,620	Re: An open letter to the DC industry... whoa, all those at the end are considered regions? thats a lot less limited than i thought. exclusive resorts > mexico/central america 77 central mountain 52 + 20 Hawaii 19 + 40 caribbean 37 + 10 south florida - 30 new york - 28 scottsdale - 25 chicago - 6 + 16 san francisco - 6 + 12 london - 7 paris - 7 ? sea island - 0 + 24 Last edited by Kagehitokiri; 04-04-2008 at 07:11 PM.

04-04-2008, 06:37 PM	#83
3DH Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 742 Club: LUSSO Collection	Re: An open letter to the DC industry... Lusso does have a somewhat unique provision (with regard to the destination club scenario) available for its members. One time a year, at any non-holiday time, if a member absolutely has to have a particular week in a particular lifestyle (beach, ski or leisure -- metropolitan is excluded)... the Club will, at their expense, make a comparable property available. According to the membership director, whom I just spoke to, this amenity has never had to be utilized since the inception of the club. This certainly speaks to the access and availability of the club due to its structure. __________________ "Boutique" is better! Another extremely satisfied LUSSO member!

04-04-2008, 06:51 PM	#85
Kagehitokiri Super Moderator Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1,620	Re: An open letter to the DC industry... thanks 3DH. lusso > beach - 14 + at least 4 ski - 8 + at least 2 leisure - 2 FYI ive copied the last 8 posts to a new thread > which clubs will sometimes rent on demand? Last edited by Kagehitokiri; 04-05-2008 at 06:07 PM.

04-05-2008, 12:36 AM	#88
Bourne Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: 60601 Posts: 483 Club: High Country Club, Pinnacle Yachts	Re: An open letter to the DC industry... with no money back... it is a prepaid trial option...

04-06-2008, 04:44 PM	#93
LTTravel Super Moderator Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1,020 Club: ER, HCC Corporate, DHH Lite, Bud Lite (A few too many)	Re: An open letter to the DC industry... Sounds like DHH is close to what you are asking for. 1. You can resell your membership 2. Holidays take 2 advanced reservation tokens, other weeks take only one. 3. You can reserve anywhere from 2-14 days at a time 4. Some properties require more "days" than others 86ft yacht- 8 days for one week 53 ft sailboat- 3 days for one week usage Auckland- 5 days for 7 days usage, etc. Occasional specials. 5. Excellent availability Maybe once they get a few more destinations, you will accept them, but then the price point is not where you want it. It was $25,000 per week but it is now up to $59,000 per week.

04-06-2008, 05:43 PM	#94
Whitesand Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 66 Club: HCC	Re: An open letter to the DC industry... I joined a DC to not have to spend any time or energy booking my family vacations. I want a nice place to stay with some concierge services, and I don't want to spend time figuring out points, trading in a system, listing weeks online or surfing the internet looking on VRBO. DCs make vacation planning very easy for people who are very busy and value their time highly. If it costs me a little extra or if I don't use every last day, I don't really care. I joined for convenience first and value second. If DCs went to a complex time share model with a system that could be beaten it would defeat the purpose of the DC for me and I would quit. Likewise if I had availability problems I would quit. I have never had a problem getting what I want when I want it...but I don't travel at Christmas and New years ever. I think a points system would make the DC club model unattractive to those of us who want simplicity and service. There is probably a large market out there of timeshare owners who would like a points model but it isn't the current DC members.

04-06-2008, 08:57 PM	#95
PerryM Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 68	The gong gong man... Someone PMed me asking about the complexity of a Point oriented DC – you probably do something very similar already, I know I do every day. A stock portfolio is much more complex than a Point oriented DC – you are converting Cash (A currency) into shares of a stock (Another form of currency) that changes, in price, up and down. You deal with the changes in the price of the stocks, stock splits, dividend payments, and finally back to cash (A currency) when you sell. You are using 2 currency systems in this example. I think someone forking out $100k+ probably has a stock fund or even more complex a mutual fund and folks do just fine. Using a Point DC is no more complex than shopping – you have Points to shop with and reservations are listed in Points. It’s no more complex than going to Wal-Mart and buying something. What’s complex is the archaic week system that most DCs use. You get 14 to 28+ days and must be use modulus 7 math (7 days per reservation) and then use complex schemes for holiday usage or simple schemes that prevent you from doing what you really want. Shopping with a currency is so simple we do it from the time we hear the ice cream truck (gong gong man) rumble by and run out the door with some currency and exchange it for a cool and delicious treat. You don't run out the door with 7 used baseballs and barter for an ice cream bar. Come on guys, you can do it… __________________ Forget global warming - we need to worry about global cooling - more. Everyone start your cars - quick! Perry