TarheelTraveler

Sure you did. You included the entire deposit in your total cost figures and divided it by the number of nights for the period, amortizing the deposit over the period as if you get nothing back. Then you mention as an aside that you get the deposit back in 15 or 10 years, without giving it any weight in your calculations, but imply over and over again that your numbers are somehow accurate and ignore the thoughtful analysis done by impartial sources. This is what I mean by misrepresentation.

Your style of "debate" drives an analytical person like myself nuts: you tend to make outlandish comments with no underlying support, people respond, you then ignore anything that goes against your argument, formulate a response that brings in some new distracting issue that has no relevance when you really think about it, all to support your horse in the blinders perspective that rentals and TTT are the best thing out there, because you want to benefit your business. I think that DC4MS has been more than generous in giving you leeway, but you never stop.

You will find that the average DC member, including myself, is very happy and would never go back to owning a vacation property or renting luxury properties. Sure there are things that can be improved in the DC industry just like any other industry (which you love to point out as if it applies uniformly across the board to every DC and member), but there is no way I'd go back to what you proclaim is so great. If it was so great, do you think that DC sales would be increasing with such momentum? Why is it that DCs have 95%+ member satisfaction? Contrast that with any other travel service, including the fractionals you love (see, for example, Survey Finds Dissatisfaction Among Many Private Residence Club Owners | Halogen Guides Real Estate - Luxury 2.0 Guides and Reviews) to tout for inclusion in TTT.

TradeToTravel

So, with ER's 60 day plan, you get 1200 days in 20 years.

$479,900 divided by 1200 days = $399/night which you'll get back in 20 years.

For my 5 year forecast, $2861 - $399 = $2462/night

For my 10 year forecast, $1921 - $399 = $1522/night

ER Traveler

TTT,

Your latest ER "calculation" of $1921 over a 10 year period is still less than your Mexico example of $16,000 per week ($2286 nightly). On that point alone the debate seems to be over.

TradeToTravel

ER Traveler, no destination club has a property which offers all that Casa Suenos offers.

I simply used Casa Suenos as an example of the sorts of services available in luxury rental properties

Bourne

I am typing this post as a personal apology to PerryM. At times, we had heated debates because we had strong and differing opinions regarding some subjects. However, those opinions, however different they may have been had merit.

This, however, is the pits.

__________________
The Nile is a river in Egypt......

DestiFan

Why do you guys respond to this? I understand his analysis is flawed, but I would hope someone truly looking into joining a DC would not base his/her decision on a person who is not a DC member that also has an affiliation with an outside competing company. This thread is a waste of time...

TradeToTravel

Hi, DestiFan, how is my analysis flawed?

TarheelTraveler

That still is not correct, TTT. You've got to keep the timeframes the same. Otherwise, you're saying I'm going to amortize the costs over 5 years to boost my costs and amortize the benefits over 20 years to reduce the benefit of a deposit return.

Like I said, the Sherpa and DC4MS calculations are much more accurate of what is going on, as they take into account lost opportunity cost and NPV figures. However, if you want to proceed with the rough TTT calculations, you would pull your refundable deposit obligation off of the top, or looking at it the way you're doing above, you would have $2,861 - ($479,000 X .75/(5X60)) (which = $1,200) for a bottom line of $1,661 for five years and $1,921 - (479K X. 75/(10X60)) (which = $598) for a bottom line of $1,323 for ten years. Obviously, amortizing the non-refundable portion over 20 years would decrease the cost even more. So at $1,323 per night, ER is much less expensive than Casa Suenos at $2,142 per night non-holiday and many of their Mexican properties are actually nicer from my perspective. Certainly the decor is better and their houses are in better resorts IMHO. They can also arrange for all the same services that you received and are required to pay for as a guest of Casa Suenos, and you'll have an extra $5,739 for the week in your example. Don't get me wrong, Casa Suenos is very nice, but so are ER's, Lusso's, A&K's, Quintess' and other's Mexican properties.

Can we now end another one of TTT's painful threads? I'm really tired of responding to TTT and agree with Desties, but have a hard time letting people post complete inaccuracies, particularly when they are on the hawking their own business.

TradeToTravel

Tarheel Traveler, I did keep the timeframes the same (20 years) and simply showed where one would stand with their destination club "investment" at years 5 and 10.

TarheelTraveler

The timeframes are absolutely not the same. As previously stated, you're trying to inflate the cost of ER by amortizing the expense over a shorter period and amortizing the return of capital over a longer period. This is completely inconsistent. You're reducing the return of deposit by dividing it by 1,200 nights when the period you're looking at is for 300 or 600 nights.

TradeToTravel

Tarheel Traveler, since I disagree with you and you think you know how my comparison should've been written, could you please edit my comparison to reflect the changes which you think should be made?

TarheelTraveler

I would love to be able to correct your numbers, but I'm not a moderator. I did however correct them in the prior post of mine. I hate to even reply, but I just can't stand people who post inaccuracies in order to peddle their product.

Tedpilot

Wholly cow Batman!!! TTT, your math is only possible in your head...maybe a 2nd grader's as well..but that is debatable elsewhere. First, when looking at prices now and in the future you either do in TODAY"S money or FUTURE money, not both. Second, I'll reiterate the fact that deposits are mostly refundable! Hello? You reading the posts by TT or Bourne at all? Third, price increases are attached to CPI or something similar with upper limits in place. No DC that I have read of goes over 10% as a standard...my God, who would be such a fool to get in on that? Fourth, regarding the sale of your company I hope that you have had a GREAT ACCOUNTANT over the years otherwise you have a big mess. No prudent business person will touch your rental brokerage with a ten-foot pole.

TradeToTravel

Tarheel Traveler, you can simply copy-n-paste my comparison to make your edits.

TarheelTraveler

I'm not sure what you have against Sherpa or DC4MS's more detailed analysis and math, but here goes, a corrected version of TTT's rough math.

If you're a member of Exclusive Resorts who plans to still be a member in [5] years (and who wants to travel 60 days per year and who would like one of your weeks to be a holiday week), in your first 5 years of membership in Exclusive Resorts, you will pay at least:

$479,900 membership fee [-359,935 refundable portion = 119,065](which is increasing by $20,000 next month, as are ALL Exclusive Resorts plans) - [Only approximately $119,750 is non-refundable]
$299,500 annual fees ($59,900 annual fee x 5 = $299,500), plus annual fees tend to increase [as do rental fees]
$79,000 holiday fee (also subject to increase [as are rental fees [not for ER members who are signed up]], ER's holiday fee recently increased by $20,000)

= $[497,565] total ER fees paid in 5 years, plus increases in annual fees (which at 10% per year would be another $29,950 [which is not correct as pointed out by me and others because of contracted maximums and rental fees also go up as pointed above which you fail to include])

[$497,565] divided by 300 nights = [$1,658]

So, in 5 years you will have paid at least [$1,658] per night [not taking into account either rental or ER increases] for 300 nights [and that assumes you decided to leave ER in only 5 years]



10 YEAR FORECAST:

If you're a member of Exclusive Resorts who plans to still be a member in [10] years (and who wants to travel 60 days per year and who would like one of your weeks to be a holiday week), in your first 10 years of membership in Exclusive Resorts, you will pay at least:

$479,900 membership fee [-359,935 refundable portion = 119,065]membership fee
$599,000 annual fees ($59,900 annual fee x 10)
$79,000 holiday fee

= [$797,065]

So, in 10 years you will have paid at least [$797,065] for 600 nights = [$1328] per night [and you decide to resign rather than keeping your membership.]


I would do 15 and 20 year projections, but there's no way to do that anywhere near accurately since there's no telling how much ER prices will rise over those lengths of time. [I would bet that most clubs, including ER, have lower contracted increases than typical rental rate increases]

[I corrected the time frames, because why would you use your membership for just 5 or 10 years, but not get your membership deposit back for 20 years]

[Let's add a 20 YEAR FORECAST:

If you're a member of Exclusive Resorts who plans to still be a member in [20] years (and who wants to travel 60 days per year and who would like one of your weeks to be a holiday week), in your first 20 years of membership in Exclusive Resorts, you will pay at least:

$479,900 membership fee [-359,935 refundable portion = 119,065]membership fee
$1,198,000 annual fees ($59,900 annual fee x 20)
$79,000 holiday fee

= $1,396,065

So, in 20 years you will have paid at least $1,396,065 for 1,200 nights = [$1163] per night and you'll get your deposit back in 20 years.

During that time, you could have spent your nights at Casa Suenos and paid $2,571,428 (or $2,142/night), and that's even before taking into account all of those 10% rental rate increases that are so common. [I just added that last part for TTT effect, because I actually don't think it would be fair to include price increases unless you include them on both sides of the comparison] On top of that, to get a rental home as incredible as the ER homes in Mexico where you will be pampered in true ER style in the way that only ER can, you'd have to rent Casa TarheelTraveler, which would run you at least $4,000/night or $4,800,000, even before all of those 10% price increases [again just debating in true TTT style].