caribbeansun

I can see how a DC can fit within a portfolio of other vacation options to satisfy travel needs during my working years, however, I've started to give some thought to longer term.

Living in Canada I'd like to leave the country for Jan/Feb/Mar and go to the sun. A DC can't fill that need for a variety of reasons.

Just curious to know what others are considering if they have similar desires once their more active working years are behind them? Are you looking at buying a second or third home? Looking at high end fractionals? Condotels?

Please share your thoughts.

TarheelTraveler

I suspect that we'll sell our primary home, move to a warmer location that would be considered a vacation destination, and keep the DC membership for variety. Now that we've gotten accustomed to the size, location and amenities of DC homes, I don't think we'd go back to the hotel experience. Every time I stay at a hotel (even a luxury hotel), it affirms how much we enjoy staying in a house that's like home, but in a better location. I'd consider a fractional, if they could ever get a viable, easy-to-exchange network going within the same luxury brand and the purchase premium wasn't so high. I know too many people with second homes that complain and talk about them the way people who own boats complain about them to consider getting a second or third home. Although I could see if I lived in Canada or other cold climate, it might be nice to have a second home to stay in for part of the year.

DC4MS

You are correct, a Destination Club is not the right product for you if those are your requirements, but what about the other 9 months of the year?

I don't think anyone here travels 100% only to Destination Club properties. In other words, a Destination Club is part of the larger travel picture and most members find that their Destination Club is quickly becoming their "preferred" way to travel.

In your specific situation where you desire 3 months of travel at one time and to one specific location (sun), I would assume a full ownership vacation home, condo, or townhome would best satisfy your needs and then you can rent the property during the other 9 months of your non-use. I would strongly suggest avoiding condo-hotels and I am not aware of any fractional that offers a 3 month usage block.

Some downsides of the above plan are - the cost can easily be $1m or more, you have to maintain a vacation property and repairs, pay taxes, and manage the rentals for 9 months. Also, you will be STUCK with visiting that same place every year (not that that is a bad thing, but many people find this a disadvantage).

Of course, you can simply rent homes in different areas and pay $10k or so per month and have no hassles of any type of ownership.

I don't think anyone here is advocating that Destination Clubs will replace all other modes of travel, it is just one outstanding piece of a larger vacation puzzle.

pwrshift

On the resale market you can buy Marriott BeachPlace timeshare weeks for about $16,000 ... they are lockoff suites which you can split into two parts, living in the 1 bdrm portion (kitchen & master) and a 2nd week in a studio (big hotel room with kitchenette only, king bed, sofa bed, and balcony).

If you wanted 12 weeks a year and not have to worry about DC's requirements of holiday weeks and multiple weeks, you could buy 6 weeks at MBP for $96,000 and maintainance for about $6600 a year. Or if you need 12 weeks of the full 2 bdrm suite the cost would be about $192,000 and $13,000 a year for maintenance. Location couldn't be better -- in the prime beachfront area of this south Florida urban city with great weather for snowbirds.

I have only 2 weeks there, split them for 4 weeks in a row from Canada's Family Day (same as Pres Day) to mid March and have never had a problem booking those weeks year after year, 13 months ahead. With 6 or 12 weeks it would be easier as you could book the week before Pres. Week and all the rest after it for 3 months. Take a look at the actual view, right here:

http://www.sunny.org/webcam/camapp.cfm

TS won't compare to a DC in size or quality, but the rules for DC's are not to favourable to long stays as you know ... and most fractionals are similar where you might get 12 weeks ownership but can't use them for 12 weeks in a row...and in probably a better location than most DC's.

Now ... if you go another step and buy direct from Marriott at their newly annouced Grande Lakes (opening 2010) you'd pay about $32,000 for each lockoff suite (larger as both parts are really 1 bdrm suites with full kitchens) and you are right on the same premises as the Ritz and JW hotels and you get full use privilege at the JW. I'm just not as excited to 'snowbird' in Orlando as I would be on the beach, but the weather is almost as good as Fort Lauderdale's. In addition, buying 6 weeks direct would get you about 6 million Marriott Reward points ... that would give you an unbelieveable amount of world trip business/first class air and hotel travel (11 two-week trips for two) and see the world that way. PM me if you need more info on how to work the MR system ... or check Marriott Rewards - Marriott Rewards program at Marriott.com

I'll prob get flamed for bringing up TS here again, but there is a time and place for them when DC's won't fill the bill ... and the 'unlimited' DC's have limits.

Brian

DC4MS

Let's not go down the Timeshare vs Destination Club path with this thread unless it specifically address the original post question (i.e offers a real solution to their request).

"Pwrshift" has presented his view on a potential Marriott Timeshare solution to the original question, but I am not sure that "Caribbeansun" wants to spend 12 weeks on Fort Lauderdale beach in a 1-2 bedroom unit every year for the next 10 years or longer (but I could be wrong) and I highly doubt that "Caribbeansun" would want to spend 3 months in Orlando.

Perhaps we can infer their desire from their username and focus on 3 month options for a Caribbean location.

I could easily spend 3 months in the British Virgin Islands if I had the free time and that would be an incredible departure from the Canadian winters.

I would also recommend other areas like US Virgin Islands, St Kitts, Nevis, St Barts, Grand Cayman, and even Turks and Caicos, etc.

One concern is that the smaller islands like Turks and St Barts are awesome, but 3 months would be a long time to spend there (IMHO).

GregGH

Not just Canada - but the Northern USA people share the dislike for winter of they are not skiers.

I hate to say that TS's have an advantage over DC's - but. The ability for the rules in TS's to book a "SERIES of weeks" is huge for such people. I marveled at Perry ( where is he these days ? ) when he explained how he would book some mud week at a ski resort to get a week's jump on others at the sunny vacation spot was an amazing plan.

So - if you need - say 4 weeks - at a DC you have to book each week separate. Ay a TS you can book all 4 weeks at once. Can DC's change that rule? ( or have I totally misunderstood that rule ? )

Part#2 - better rental web sites are needed. Had chats with a fellow from "Society" - pushing them to have user feedback and better pictures -- the pain of rentals has to be reduced (pain is the uncertainty of knowing what you are really getting ).

Otherwise people give up and just buy a place in Florida.

Greg

(who also had a tremendous dislike for Jan-Feb & fist 2 weeks on March)

ps - when mentioning about traveling the other times -- with golf leagues and good weather at home - who wants to leave? Got to take that $5 from one's friends on the golf course :-)

Kagehitokiri

UE allows 3 week reservations. DHH will soon follow.

LTTravel

Maybe if I retire it will be different, but I can't imagine spending three months at one location and call it a vacation. Pwrshift, I spent three nights at the ER St.Regis and it was great, but I couldn't spend three months there even if it was possible. If you really like a place well enough to spend three months there, then maybe you should just purchase a home there or think of renting, as DC4MS suggested. Maybe because I am still working, I can't think of staying in the same place for more than two weeks at a time, but again, that may change. With 38 or more choices with ER, though we have loved nearly every destination, we try to get a different one every time, as much as we can. We have been to some of our favorites two or three times, but we still try to vary our trips as much as possible.

pwrshift

LTTravel .. It was caribbeansun who wanted to consider 3 months in the sun at some future point and I was illustrating that it could be done with TS.

Personally, 3 months might be a bit long for me too in Ft. Laud - but I've been going there every winter for a good many years for 4-5 weeks and would call it my second home. In the dead of a Canadian winter, it's hard to beat Ft. Laud and still keep in touch with the North American way of doing things. The St. Regis becomes a Marriott this month (RC) btw. You could have met Steamboat at Hooters.

Steamboat Bill

I grew up in Fort Lauderdale on the Intercoastal and a short bike ride from BeachPlace.

I am a little biased in my opinion, but it was a great place to grow up. I am shocked to see how high the prices have risen for some of the beach properties and remember The Strip when it was a college Spring Break hangout.

Lauderdale is great in the Winter and there are TONS of tourists (especially) Canadians here, but I also think 3-4 months in one spot may be a long time.

Perhaps a strategy of 1 month in Fort Lauderdale, 1 month in Palm Beach, 1 month in Marco/Naples as a 3 month Florida getaway. Many Canadians drive their own cars down here and that is one advantage over a Caribbean location.

caribbeansun

I would agree that 3 months in one location would be a bit much and I don't see us doing that.

We own a condo in Grand Cayman so we'd likely spend one month there. We've talked about spending another month in possibly the Scottsdale area (I was thinking Troon North) although of late my DW has suggested that she'd prefer to be by the water so perhaps another in the Caribbean. Of course somebody was trying to talk her into Aviara for January.

Please don't get me wrong - this is long-term stuff - as in 15 years out or more. Why I torture myself by even thinking about this stuff is beyond me but we have had casual conversations about setting some long-term goals and within that context we've talked about wanting to be warm during the winters, home in the spring, perhaps a couple weeks at the cottage in the summer and then a fall trip somewhere. It may well be that a DC will continue to be part of that mix but it doesn't seem as feasible for the extended winter period away from home.

I actually stumbled across a place in Belize that sold their fractional time by the month - as in - you could buy February. Kind of novel.

FYI - our place in Cayman is a condo hotel with no restrictions whatsoever on owner usage. Any unused time can be put into their rental pool.

pwrshift

I came very close to forking out for a Condo Hotel that permitted up to 9 weeks of use at Home - Red Leaves | Lake Rosseau, Muskoka and decided against it for fear their estimated projections on rental occupancy rates (55% for winter months) was way too high, and even tough I can see 100% in summer I didn't see it averaging out in black fly season, etc. In addition, like DC's, the Condo-Hotel thingy was pretty new and even though it had some tax advantages there seems to be a lot of unhappiness with CH owners out there these days.

I'm curious to know if you feel your Cayman investment worked out financially to your expectations?

The Red Leaves complex (JW Marriott) was supposed to open before this summer but there's still no opening date that I can see other than 2008.

Another concern I have about retirement for several months a year in another country is healthcare costs and, as you age, pre-existing conditions that could play havoc with your retirement income.

ER Traveler

Our plan is to buy a home in Hawaii in addition to our home base and spend about every other month there. I can't imagine spending more than a month at a time. We will probably keep our DC membership and possibly add another one before buying in Hawaii. This could give us a feel for spending extended periods there or in Mexico. Most clubs have lots of properties in these locations and it would be possible to book 2 weeks at a time with ER then move to another ER unit with a separate reservation or to another club's home. In Hawaii we could do the same and possibly island hop that way. This could also be done in the Caribbean along with some sailing trips. If that plan goes well we may find we don't really need to buy a second home. This will be 5 or 6 years from now and my only concern is that I will be bored with ER's Hawaii/Mexico homes by then and posssibly bored with the "resort" lifestyle. I wonder how the club will keep things fresh and exciting in the destinations where they've had the longest presence? Will they eventually "harvest" the existing homes and buy into other developments? I think they'd really have to adjust the business model to keep up with real estate prices.

caribbeansun

I've reviewed rental projections for a variety of projects and I can tell you that most of them are absolute garbage. The most recent was the new Westin resort on St. Lucia which had projected occupancy of almost 70%. Those sorts of occupancy rates aren't possible in the early stages of development AND they didn't factor in any dilution of the rental pool as additional buildings were brought on-line. In the end their projections weren't worth the paper they were written on.

As to the Cayman project I would say there wasn't full disclosure of certain elements of the business model by the resort (is there ever?). Despite that it is cash-flow positive before considering leverage which seems to be far better than most other condotel projects. We've seen good capital appreciation thus far but we got sideswiped by the US$ erosion - thankfully I hedged some of that with US$ leverage which softened the blow. All in all it seems to be working out all right for us.

Red Leaves assumptions aren't realistic - 90% occupancy in July and August is reasonable. 40-50% in shoulder season (May/June/Sept/early Oct) and probably close to 20% in winter would be more realistic IMO.