vineyarder

While the TravelGuy post was an enjoyable read, for those readers that may prefer an unbiased comparison from someone who has experience as a member of both clubs, I will present the:

FAIR & BALANCED COMPARISON OF HCC AND ULTIMATE ESCAPES

COST

Membership Level Comparison:

Post June 1 Price Increase for High Country Club
Companion = 7 days, $30,000 deposit, $2,300/yearly
Associate= 15 days, $50,000 deposit, $4,800/yearly
Affiliate = 25 days, $60,000 deposit, $7,200/yearly
Private = 35 days, $80,000 deposit, $9,600/yearly

Post-Merger pricing for Ultimate Escapes (Premiere)
Premiere/ Bronze = 14 days, $80,000 deposit, $8,000/yearly
Premiere/ Silver = 21 days, $105,000 deposit, $9,500/yearly
Premiere/ Gold = 28 days, $115,000 deposit, $11,000/yearly
Premiere/ Platinum = 42 days, $125,000 deposit, $12,000/yearly


Surprisingly, not as simple as it seems.

Clearly HCC has a much lower entry point, but one must take into account holiday access and advanced reservations, etc. As TravelGuy noted, HCC will customize memberships, allowing one to add extra holiday weeks, etc. Since this post is aimed at people with a travel addiction, let’s compare the high-end memberships. The UE 42 night membership includes 2 holiday reservations and 4 advance/long-term reservations; the HCC Private membership includes 35 nights with 1 holiday and 2 advance/long-term reservations. First, let’s add 7 nights to the HCC membership to bring it up to 42; presumably we can just multiply by 42/35, making a 42 night HCC Super-Private membership $96,000 with $11,520 dues. My understanding is that adding a LT Holiday reservation costs $12,500 + $500/yr, and adding a LT non-holiday costs $10,000 + $500/yr. So now let’s add another holiday reservation and two more advanced reservations, at a total cost of $32,500 + $1500.

Final Result; Apples-to-Apples 42 night membership:

UE Premiere w 42 nights, 2 holidays, 4 LT Res. = $125,000 deposit, $12,000/yr
HCC Super-Private w 42 nights, 2 holidays, 4 LT Res. = $128,500 deposit, $13,020/yr

Obviously this will make the per-night rates very similar.

RESULT – Close enough to call a TIE



DEPOSIT REFUND:

HCC deposit is 100% refundable the first year, and 80% after the first year, on a 2 in – 1 out basis.

UE deposit is refunded at 80% of the then-current deposit, on a 3 in – 1 out basis.

RESULT – Depends on personal preference; choice of potential upside with UE vs. faster redemption with HCC.



DESTINATIONS:

Ski Properties: Definite advantage to HCC (although points to UE for 1 daily free lift pass at Colorado properties).

Golf Properties: Although I am not a golfer, there appears to be a definite advantage to UE, with more selection and drastically reduced greens fees at resort courses, including the Ritz-Carlton Reynolds Plantation.

Metropolitan: NYC – HCC has a 1 bedroom unit at 1600 Broadway in NYC; UE has a studio in that same building (although essentially the same square footage, just different layout). UE also has a 1 bedroom at Trump, and a 1 bedroom at the Link, plus access through reciprocity to another, larger 1 bedroom at Trump plus a 2 bedroom at the Link, plus a 2 bedroom penthouse at 1600 Broadway. In addition, UE also has a 2 bedroom in Chicago and a 2 bedroom in Lake Las Vegas (though I’m not sure if that should count as metropolitan or golf). Definite advantage to UE.

Europe: Both HCC and UE have 2 properties in Tuscany. HCC has a 1 bedroom and a 2 bedroom; UE has two 2 bedroom properties. UE Premiere also have access to a 3000 sq ft 3 bedroom home on 20 acres in Tuscany via reciprocity. UE also reportedly has a home in Ireland under contract, and after the merger, UE Premiere will have access through reciprocity to homes in London and Paris. Advantage to UE.

Beach Properties: Both clubs haves twelve beach properties, plus both clubs have Costa Rica under contract. TIE.

Other: HCC has a property in Orlando; UE has a short-term leased property in Orlando while a property at Ginn Resort is being purchased. TIE.

Yacht: UE has a 78 foot yacht in the British Virgin Islands, albeit at additional costs. Advantage to UE.

Overall Result - TIE; depends on personal preferences (ski vs. golf, etc.)



PROPERTY SIZE/QUALITY IN SHARED LOCATIONS:

Outer Banks – Currituck Club
UE – 2700 sq ft 4bd home
HCC – 4700 sq ft 5bd custom home w/ pool < Advantage High Country Club

Hawaii (Waikoloa)
UE – 1236 sq ft, 2bd Condo, no ocean view
HCC – 1700 sq ft. 3bd Townhome, no ocean view < Advantage High Country Club

Steamboat Springs
UE – 1100 sq. ft 3bd Condo
HCC – 2325 sq ft, 4bd Townhome < Advantage High Country Club

Punta Mita
UE – 3000 sq ft, 3bd, no pool
HCC – 3500 sq ft 4bd w/ pool
HCC is bigger, with fourth bedroom, but UE appears to have better ocean views. - TIE

Cabo San Lucas
UE – 3000 sq ft 4 bedroom house with private pool, ocean views < Advantage UE
UE – 1727 sq ft 2 bedroom condo with distant ocean view
HCC – 2166 sq ft 2 bedroom condo with direct ocean views

Turks & Caicos
UE – 2364 sq ft 2 bedroom cottage with no ocean view
HCC – 1236 sq ft 2 bedroom condo with direct ocean views
UE is much bigger, but UE has direct ocean views. Personal choice, so TIE.

Stowe
UE – 1900 sq ft 3 bedroom townhome
HCC – 2247 sq ft 3 bedroom townhome
TIE

La Quinta
UE – 2412 sq ft 3 bedroom home,private spa
UE – 2400 sq ft 3 bedroom home, private spa
HCC – 2844 sq ft 3 bedroom home with private pool & spa < advantage HCC

La Costa
UE – 1020 sq ft 1 bedroom condo, available all year
HCC – 1800 sq ft 2 bedroom condo, limited availability
TIE; size vs. limited availability

Beaver Creek
UE – 1200 sq ft 2 bedroom
HCC – 1305 sq ft 2 bedroom
HCC – 2117 sq ft 3 bedroom < advantage HCC

Lake Tahoe
UE – 1800 sq ft 3 bedroom condo < advantage UE
HCC – 1235 sq ft 2 bedroom condo

Overall - Advantage HCC


RECIPROCITY
At least currently, PE members have reciprocal usage, up to 7 nights per year (excluding holidays) of Platinum ($1.5 - $2M homes) and/or Pinnacle ($3.5 - $4M homes). Whether this continues for new members that join UE is unclear. While HCC has a number of flagship properties that are well in excess of the average property value of $850K, they are not in the $3.5 - $4M range of Pinnacle.
< Advantage UE (if benefit continues)


ADDITIONAL SERVICES:
Both clubs offer personalized travel planning assistance; UE has detailed destination guides. HCC is in the process of developing destination guides. UE has on-site local hosts or concierges, whereas HCC does not. UE provides additional cleaning services and grocery stocking at no charge; HCC charges for these services.
Advantage UE.


AVAILABILITY:
Unless you don’t care where or when you travel, overall availability percentages are quite misleading, especially when HCC has so many ski properties that will sit unused much of the year. Better to compare apples to apples. In reviewing the following figures, it is important to understand that in PE, members can make either a ‘tentative’ reservation (which can be cancelled without any penalty) or a confirmed reservation (in which case penalties apply if cancelled). When a property has a tentative reservation, any member that wants that property at that time can ‘challenge’ the tentative reservation; the member holding the tentative reservation then must decide within 48 hours whether to confirm the reservation or release the reservation to the challenger (who must then confirm). Therefore two numbers are given for UE; the percent that the property is wide open (% A), and the percentage of days that are held by tentative reservations (% T), which could be challenged and potentially made available.

Turks: June/July 2008 HCC 0% A UE 38% A + 51% T
Turks: Jan/Feb 2009 HCC 34% A UE 9% A + 47% T

Cabo: June/July 2008 HCC 21% A UE 52% A + 24% T
Cabo: Jan/Feb 2009 HCC 61% A UE 66% A + 22% T

OBX: June/July 2008 HCC 0% A UE 7% A + 3% T
OBX: Jan/Feb 2009 HCC 100% A UE 100% A

Punta Mita: June/July 2008 HCC 0% A UE 49% A + 49% T
Punta Mita: Jan/Feb 2009 HCC 0% A UE 8% A + 88% T

Waikoloa: June/July 2008 HCC 34% A UE 92% A + 8% T
Waikoloa: Jan/Feb 2009 HCC 76% A UE 81% A + 15% T

New York: June/July 2008 HCC 0% A UE 38% A + 45% T
New York: Jan/Feb 2009 HCC 92% A UE 97% A

Tuscany: June/July 2008 HCC 11% A UE 43% A + 15% T
Tuscany: Jan/Feb 2009 HCC 100% A UE 100% A

La Costa: June/July 2008 HCC 0% A UE 34% A + 54% T
La Costa: Jan/Feb 2009 HCC 0% A UE 84% A + 10% T

La Quinta: June/July 2008 HCC 39% A UE 97% A
La Quinta: Jan/Feb 2009 HCC 97% A UE 81% A + 16% T

Tahoe: June/July 2008 HCC 57% A UE 33% A + 26% T
Tahoe: Jan/Feb 2009 HCC 73% A UE 61% A + 36% T

Stowe: June/July 2008 HCC 13% A UE 52% A + 26% T
Stowe: Jan/Feb 2009 HCC 91% A UE 46% A + 10% T

Steamboat: June/July 2008 HCC 26% A UE 82% A + 16% T
Steamboat: Jan/Feb 2009 HCC 49% A UE 46% A + 47% T

Overall, during the months of June & July 2008, HCC has 18.3% availability at these 11 destinations, whereas UE has 56% availability at these 11 destinations, with an additional 29% that could be ‘challenged’ and possibly opened up. Overall, during the months of January & February of 2009, HCC has 70% availability at these 11 destinations, whereas UE has 71% availability at these 11 destinations, with an additional 26% that could be ‘challenged’ and possibly opened up.

Advantage UE, especially for summer months.


RESERVATIONS:

The reservation system with PE Premiere is dramatically more flexible, allowing stays of anywhere from 1 - 14 nights, starting and ending on any night, reserved essentially as far in advance as you wish. The theoretical concerns raised by TravelGuy are simply that; theoretical, and have not occurred in practice. This system is loved by the members, and if the theoretical concerns raised by TravelGuy ever became reality, the members would ask that it be changed.

Advantage UE


HOLIDAYS:

Can’t fully address as I do not know for certain what the holiday policy will be for new members joining UE. Currently in PE, only Christmas and New Years weeks count as holidays, and they are handled by a lottery that takes into account your past successes or failures and your flexibility. Based on prior performance, one can reasonably expect to get Xmas or New Years about every other year if you are reasonably flexible on destination. Spring break, President’s Day, July 4th, Memorial Day, Labor Day & Thanksgiving are first-come, first served, and can be booked as far in advance as you like. Within HCC, unless you buy extra holyday reservations, you are limited to one holiday per year (unless available on short notice), and cannot book the same holiday more frequently than every third year.

Advantage UE


FINANCES & BUSINESS MODEL

I do not feel comfortable commenting on these areas for several reasons:

A) I am not a spreadsheet jockey.
B) I am not sure how much of the information I have is confidential.
C) I think that this is an area that every potential member of ANY club needs to evaluate themselves and/or with the help of their advisors.


BOTTOM LINE

In a FAIR & BALANCED COMPARISON OF HCC AND ULTIMATE ESCAPES, the categories end up as follows:

COST – Advantage HCC on lower level memberships, TIE on higher end memberships.

DEPOSIT REFUND – TIE; personal preference, with choice of potential upside with UE vs. quicker refund with HCC (due to 2 in 1 out vs. 3in 1 out).

SKI DESTINATIONS - Advantage HCC.

BEACH DESTINATIONS – TIE

GOLF DESTINATIONS – Advantage UE

METROPOLITAN – Advantage UE

EUROPE – Advantage UE

PROPERTY SIZE / QUALITY – Advantage HCC

AVAILABILITY – Advantage UE

RESERVATION SYSTEM – Advantage UE

HOLIDAY SYSTEM – Advantage UE

EXTRAS – Advantage UE (Yacht, Local Host, lift passes, greens fees)


So, assuming that one is comfortable with the finances and management of both clubs, then the decision between these two clubs should hinge upon:

A) How much your budget is and how many annual usage days you want to purchase?
B) Which is more important to you; potential upside appreciation or faster redemption upon resignation?
C) Which is more important to you; the size and quality of the homes or reservation flexibility and availability?
D) How important is holiday usage?
E) Are ski or golf destinations more important to you?
F) How important is metropolitan usage is to you?
G) How important is a local host / on-site concierge to you?
H) How likely are you to use the yacht?

So, in a fair and balanced comparison of HCC and PE/UE, there is no one-size fits all answer. Since both clubs offer a 100% refund trial version (any plan during the first year for HCC and the Preview membership in PE), and since both clubs have price increases pending, now might be a good time to join both and see which fits your lifestyle and preferences better, while locking in today’s rates!

Kagehitokiri

another great comparison.

rereading travelguy's post, his pinnacle "comparisons" do seem quite off.

smtravelor

Thanks to Vineyarder for taking the time to correct the errors in TravelGuy's post and for providing an accurate assessment. As a member of both clubs, Vineyarder is in the best position to evaluate the differences between tHCC and PE/UE. Readers who are in the decision-making process should beware the tendency to of posters to proclaim that the club they chose to join is the best.

pwrshift

Now, that was worth reading. Thanks so much for the objectivity.

Desties

I was going to chime in on TG's thread, but figured it would amount to quibbling after he went out of his way to come up with both an enlightening and entertaining read.

That said, yes, I'm not sure why he chose to compare the half-dozen Pinnacle properties as reciprocity instead of ALL of the Platinum and Pinnacle properties (and all of the Ultimate properties since we are talking about numbers post-merger).

HCC's biggest advantage relative to Premiere as far as home values go is that the club is buying homes now -- when you can get more bang for your buck -- than when Premiere was snapping up many of its properties during the peak. That's great for HCC. It's great for HCC members.

You see it inversely in the more recent Premiere properties (i.e. - PE Premiere's property in Rosemary Beach (i.e. - Watercolor) is larger than HCC's villa. Still, this is definitely HCC's overall advantage until we see the kind of new member pull and real estate expansion strategy that PE achieves post-merger for its entry-level club.

I really like HCC, and understand the tradeoffs that come with the lower prices. I was just surprised to see TG not give PE advantages on availability and somehow spin PE's reservations flexibility as a negative. Having the ability to book trips as far as three years away isn't about savvy members hogging up all of the non-holiday hot weeks, because having 28 days booked at any time penalize the far-out bookers with fewer dates in the near-term. I think it's the perfect system, or at least near-perfect. I can't imagine what Thursday nights will be for HCC members this summer as they try to be the midnight clicker to get that week in OBX (because the Saturday morning of 2009 will be the date equivalent of Friday morning this year).

I hope this never turns into a pissing contest, because I think HCC and PE Premiere are the entry-level stars of the destination club industry. If PE wasn't around -- or if it becomes more UR like post-merger -- I too would join vineyarder in joining both clubs to see which one is the best fit.

They are both great clubs.

Bourne

Great post and I enjoyed reading it. Should make this a sticky too.

A couple of Q...

Did the daily fees structure of PE go away?

Whoa.. This is way different than what I got. Then again, my info is dated. Could you clarify the source and timing of this info. I may be communicating wrong info to a few freinds who are potential members.

__________________
The Nile is a river in Egypt......

Bourne

A couple of inputs based on vineyarder's analysis...

HCC trumps PE big time at lower levels in terms of cost. Bronze vs Associate. Silever/Gold vs Affiliate. An apple to apple comparison at the top level is a statistical TIE(I still have questions regarding pricing of customization) , but I think it works to HCC's favor. When comparing two charts, the perception at top tier level is that HCC is cheaper. 125K to 100K with comparable dues. However, with PE, you only get an apple. With HCC, you can customize your fruit salad by adding pineapple, grapes, passion fruit etc. for the same price. IMHO, it is Advantage HCC. But I respect vineyarder's opinion on it.

My answers and I am looking forward to opinions of others...

A) I love hoarding those green backs. Cost is key but so is quality. My preferred usage is 45 days and its HCC Private Upgrade or Quintess Q2 membership in the near future.
B Faster redemption upon resignation. It is a lifestyle investment. Does not show up on my asset list.
C) Size and quality of the homes. As I am within shooting distance of AA Lifetime Plat(2MM), I know a thing about working around reservation flexibility and availability. Then again, things are changing.
D) Very. But I can live with two LT Holiday reservations. My current usage is 7x7x7x4. Going forward, it will be 14x14x14(may share 7)x3
E) Ski and beach destinations are. So is an Orlando property. and a beach property within driving distance to Orlando for a 14 day split.
F) Not important. Live and work in Chicago loop. Get my 'fix' at home. Kids too young also.
G) Here is another answer to it. What I really care about is airport transfers and grocery stocking. Daily cleaning is nice but 2 within a week is a minimum.
H) Own a fractional at home at a fraction of the cost. Get my fix at home.

__________________
The Nile is a river in Egypt......

Desties

This is going from Ultimate's comments at Ragatz on how the new Ultimate Escapes plan will look like. Since Ultimate never offered per night fees -- and the Ultimate plan is a fixed number of nights -- the nightly fees are factored in with the annual dues.

PE members have been told that they will be grandfathered in (i.e. - lower annual dues, offset by the per night fees) but how that is resolved exactly is not publicly known.

Under an ideal situation, someone weighing both PE and HCC would be best served by joining HCC (100% refundable within the first year) AND the preview plan of PE (half the price of the regular plan -- and always 100% refundable after the first 18 months). That way you get in before both price hikes and get grandfathered in under the PE terms, or have the flexibility to bow out if the new club doesn't meet those expectations.

Obviously forking over a deposit of $80,000 is a lot more than weighing the decision between $30,000 or $50,000, but this is a decision that will get more expensive in a few weeks (and perhaps not even possible on the PE front once the pre-merger gate closes).

vineyarder

Not yet, but it goes away for new members that join under the UE pricing structure that was analyzed...

This is what I was told by Heath & Dan about 6 months ago, and was the price to convert basic days to long-term or long-term holiday.

Bourne

Your info is more current than mine. Thanks for the quick update.

__________________
The Nile is a river in Egypt......

Steamboat Bill

I enjoyed reading both TravelGuy’s and Vineyarder’s thread on HCC vs PE/UR/UE as they break down this complex decision into the same criteria I use to evaluate different clubs.

The interesting thing is how the two clubs differ at the 7, 14, 15, 21, 25, 28, 35, and 42 night levels. It is pretty amazing that none of the plans are a perfect match in terms of nights of use and this may a strategic move on both clubs.

Vineyarder’s comparison focused on a 42 night plan and his conclusions would probably be very different if he compared the 14-15 night plans. The advantage of a 15 night plan is that it gives a potential 7 + 4 + 4 usage but you may actually lose a night if you only did a 7 + 7 trip.

For me, the two clubs I focused on was HCC and PE Premiere as these fit my family travel patterns at the time better than a club like ER. I chose HCC initially as a 15 night Associate plan and then upgraded to the 21 night Affiliate plan (now 25 nights) as I really loved their homes. I did not upgrade to the 25 night plan or higher as I have other plans with timeshares, cruises, non-DC locations, etc.

I first looked at the dollar per night comparison and then looked at the individual property locations and then chose HC as the club that had the better combination for my own individual needs. I am sure there are other people that would have chosen PE as it fit their needs better. Thus, there is no perfect club for everyone.

I personally feel HCC offers superior homes and locations than PE Premiere (with the exception of the BVI yacht) and I liked the fact that I can save money by not having daily housekeeping or some other features that PE builds into their fees. However, I really like the PE Platinum properties and feel that a combination of HCC and PE Platinum would be an almost perfect fit for most travel needs.

I have long been in favor of someone joining two destination clubs.

LTTravel

I thought that PE Premiere did not have daily housekeeping and only the two higher levels had daily housekeeping. It is my understanding also that UR does not have daily housekeeping. It will be interesting to know what UE will have.

Bourne